[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to part one of my conversation with Ken and Karen Scott. They are an amazing couple who, I hope you hear what I experience whenever I'm around them. That they are amazing human beings separately, as well as together. And if. You do not hear the couple goals and the relationship goals that happen when you, when you listen to this, then it just is not coming through.
So I hope you experience that just as much as I do, and I hope you will come back and join me for part two. So I hope you enjoy this episode. Welcome to the average nineties GAL podcast. Join me as I share my own journeys through life, how I got [00:01:00] and continue to get through them, as well as real stories from real people in this crazy world.
Let's get through it together.
Okay. Ken and Karen, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. Hey, Meredith, you are live. Yes. So with every episode, and Karen, we'll start with you, but if you could both tell me what generation you are from your upbringing. Where you were born, where you grew up, your family dynamic, family history, anything you're willing to share.
Awesome. This is so fun to sit across a table from you and like be able to actually like look at you in the reel while we're talking. Um, I, uh. Let's see. So I'm, uh, like the Cuspy end of Gen X. I was born in [00:02:00] 79, so I'm a Virgo Cusper, I'm a Gen X cusper. I'm just like riding that cusp. And um, I was born in Jerusalem.
Uh, my dad is Israeli, my mom's from the Detroit area, and she was living in Israel at the time. They met on an archeological dig, actually. Oh, cool. Um, where, and so I grew up in Israel for the first, uh, almost seven years of my life. And then, um, living in Jerusalem, but have family kind of all over Israel and a lot of family on a kibbutz.
So my dad grew up on a kibbutz and, uh, that was a really big part of my upbringing. Uh, spending time there, spending time outdoors, spending time in a really, like a collective setting, like a setting where people are really relying on each other, uh, in a different way, I think, than we experienced in many places today.
And we moved to the States when I was in [00:03:00] second grade and we moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan. So my mom was, um, both desiring to be closer to her family, but also to pursue law school, which she didn't see as much opportunity at the time in Israel. So we moved to the States and lived in like family dorms at the university.
And then after she graduated, um, moved into my grandparents' previous house outside of Detroit. And so family dynamics were. I, Ken and I often laugh at like, we live a much more kind of like. Gender, typical American gender role experience and either of us grew up in. Mm-hmm. Uh, my mom was the parent that worked out of the house in like a corporate job, uh, or various different, you know, law firm type settings.
My dad was at home at that point. He was already retired and he was working as an artist. And so he had the freedom of like, schedule to support us as kids getting around. Um. To, you know, friend's house sports, things like that. [00:04:00] And, um, I think in my house, like we live very, like independent lives, kind of.
Uh, we didn't do communal meals, you know, every day of the week. Um, my mom worked late. My dad often time his opportunity to work was when we were like settled at home and not being run around, uh, or at school. And, um, yeah, so I, I think we had like very. Independent lives that sort of intersected on the weekends and spent a lot of time with my grandparents on the weekends.
So my grandparents were like very, very in my life growing up too. Now I feel like I could just like go on and on and on. I'm not going. Make sense? Do, did you have a brother? I was just gonna say siblings. I do. I have a couple siblings. Thank you. Yeah, I have a, I have a younger brother who's about five years younger than I am, and then I have a half sister, so I grew up with my brother in the house always.
And then I have a half sister who lives in Israel, who's about five years older than I am. Okay. And so your dad, my dad was [00:05:00] married previously before he was married to my mom. Yeah. And how old was he when you were born? Because you said he had retired? Yeah, he was, um, I think when I was born he was probably about 32 or 33.
He was retired from the military, which was professionally where uh, he worked and then, um, took on a career, like really created a career for himself as an artist, as a stained glass artist, which even now in his almost 80 years, uh, he still does. Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah. Very cool. And. I forgot to mention, we are recording from Oakland, California.
How did you end? How did I here end up in California? Um.
A little bit like following Kennon. Oh, okay. And we'll get to that story. Yes. Gosh, we'll get to that story later. It's a little bit and a little bit. Um, my undergrad was in fine [00:06:00] art and when I graduated I really was desiring to be somewhere. With like a really what I perceive to be like rich, uh, artist scene and um, just like more color and diversity, I think in general vibrancy, uh, than what I was experiencing in Michigan at the time.
Where I felt like I had to seek that out more. And I think I had this perception that it was like everywhere here. And so I moved here right after college, uh, a few days before September 11th, 2001. I think I probably got here around September 5th or so. Um, and I moved out here with a couple of friends that I'd made in school.
We had, uh. Loft that we found on Craigslist had never seen, you know, was just like, oh, live work. Like that was all, everything we wanted. Mm-hmm. Um, and just literally drove across country and showed up at this place we found on Craigslist and started paying rent, uh, and Ken, and then started figuring out how to pay rent.
Um, [00:07:00] yeah. And that comes after Totally. And Ken in the twenties. Yeah. Yeah. And Kennan was living. Uh, like about a mile away at the time. So I was also like very happy that we could actually walk to mm-hmm. See one another. And where did you go to college? I went to college at Michigan State University. Oh.
For undergrad. And then I ended up going to grad school out here at Samuel Mart University. Oh, okay. Yeah. Very cool, Shannon. She is. She is. Yes, it's true. It's true. Um, myself, I am a product of a single mother home in New York. My mom is a. Classic New Yorker, New York to the bone, New York to the core. New York will never leave.
Um, she was born in and still lives in New York. Uh, she's my, she's my rock. Uh, let's see more about me. Um, I grew up in a traditional single family home, right, where me and my mom did everything [00:08:00] together. My mom is or was a teacher. She taught special ed. Um, four, five, or no. Three, four split. And, um, she was a dancer.
My mom grew up at a dance school in Queens, New York, and uh, she went back and taught there as an adult. She taught African dance. Uh, she did all kinds of dance when she grew up, but. Her passion became African dance. And when we moved back to New York for a little bit, we lived in California around when I was three, we lived in Inglewood.
And then when we moved back, we moved back to a year or so after coming to New York back in with my grandparents. And that was in the same neighborhood where the dance school was. So I got to start going to that dance school and I grew up in that dance school, um, from probably age four or five. To 17 My Wednesdays for Thursdays, Fridays, [00:09:00] Saturdays were spent at that dancing school.
Um, uh, so yeah, I learned how to dance at an early age. That was something that was really fun for me and was really a really nice way to kind. Be a different person, have like all these alternative personas I guess. 'cause I had one in school. I had one at dance in school. And then somewhere around, I wanna say like age eight, I started acting.
And so started becoming a professional actor and acted in, you know, any realm that I could, whether it be on stage, commercials, voice, movies, however, you're in New York, you're auditioning for everything. Did that till I was around 17 and really at that point had been living. This like, almost like gig economy lifestyle for myself, where I had to go to the auditions and do all that to try to get a job and was really actually desiring some stable work.
Mm-hmm. Which is so weird to say. Like child actor. And I was like burned [00:10:00] out on the gig economy at like 17. Yeah. But uh, yeah, I just remember being like, I want to do something that's just gonna be. You know, an office job. Like I've had all my friends, they've worked like customer service, like they've done all these like regular jobs.
This one, our regular job, um, ended up going to college for engineering. Uh, I got a bachelor's from Northeastern in Boston, and civil engineering really used some skills that I learned in high school all throughout, uh, this particular skill called technical drafting, which I used AutoCAD, learned AutoCAD in high school.
It got me. Basically all the way till I moved out here as a professional engineer. It got me through. Um, so my first job post college graduation was with a telecom company in Hayward. And we did that because I had come out here for, um, Northeastern has a co-op program, so it's like an internship. I'd come out here to check it out.
With a couple friends, did an internship out here and [00:11:00] was able to come back and go back to that job. Uh, so living out here was pretty easy right away. I was a civil engineer with a job, got a car, learned how to drive. That was something new. Uh, 'cause I drove cross country like Karen and the only reason why I got a license was to drive cross country to come out here.
But then you get out to California and you quickly realize you need a car. Yeah. To do almost everything. Um, but yeah, really just settled in. Worked for a while as an engineer, then transitioned to being a teacher. Um, and then really, really found myself as an educator in West Oakland. Really found myself as part of a community that looked, felt, sounded, smelled, acted like Brooklyn, um, and really just settled in, in terms of creating roots in Oakland during that time.
Cool. And I just wanna quickly go back to the child actor part. Yeah. 'cause I just think it's so cool that you were in like the OG milk commercials, right? That well [00:12:00] not milk that was Reese's. Oh, Reese's, I'm sorry. It's a S commercial, but milk is the star of that. It's odd, right? Yeah, that's what it was. I know.
I was like, wasn't there something about milk? So it was Reese's, it's a Reese's commercial show. And you were in the Cosby Show. Uhhuh. Yeah. Right. You can you tell everyone what what you did 'cause. Oh, and you're Gen X as well, right? Oh, right. Yeah. I'm Gen XA year older than Karen, so 78 in the house. I'd say we aged like a fine wine Gen X 'cause we're full of preservatives.
Like res, like wine. Like wine and like all the cereal we ate as kids. Yeah. Pretty much everything that they gave us, they're chock full of preservatives. Yeah. So we're gonna be around y'all, just let you know, gen X is not going anywhere. So, and for the audience, what The Cosby Show. Yeah. So it's interesting 'cause you grew up in New York as an actor and the Cosby [00:13:00] Show is just a black legacy project.
So if you're a black actor, you have auditioned for every role you've, your goal is to get on the Cosby Show. It is like, you know, I would say if they're. If there was a primary goal, this wasn't even close to like a primary beat. It was like right there up there with your primary goals as an actor in New York, especially a black actor.
So I auditioned for every role, like there's no role that was my age that I did not audition for and watch my friends get. For years, like watching people get it and you're like, oh, you got that. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. I mean everything from Bud all the way through to like bid parts. And finally I landed this role as PJ 1 38 or something like that.
And I was like, okay, this is Google. We're gonna do this. It was two parts, so two episodes initially, and they changed my name thankfully to Raheem, so I'm Raheem, not pj, whatever, 1 38 [00:14:00] or 1 36 or something. And uh, yeah, it was one of the students that Malcolm Jamal. Theo was teaching in an afterschool program, and it was, it was amazing because, to be honest with you, I was ready.
I had, like I said, been auditioning forever. Really was at a good point in my like, acting career. And so I had one line. In the first episode, one stinking line, and it was like a rebuttal about some diss on my shoes. So I also had to wear busted shoes. So it was like, can not only can you not wear your cool shoes, you have to wear these busted shoes, and your one line is gonna be about defending yourself.
So I just remember that being like, all right, that's like really acting apart for you. Yeah, for real. I don't, I don't do buster shoes, so I was like, okay, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna ride with that, but. You film for a week, and then so for two episodes you're basically filming, you're in studio for two whole weeks.
And so as we're like getting into week two, I started noticing people are forgetting their lines. And I'm just like, I got that line. So you [00:15:00] forgot it. Oh no, this is the line. Oh, you forgot that line too. Check it out. I got that line. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yep. Mm-hmm. And then, oh, well wait. Out of all these 13 year olds, this one seems to be stepping up.
And so the second episode, I got like a real good chunk of the episode about me, about my dad losing his job, about me leaving the center, and then they brought us back a year later and that at by then. My homie Merlin, who was in that episode, had moved on in the Cosby Show. He was now like Rudy's love interest.
So he didn't have to take center stage. The first episodes were about him and dyslexia and really blabbing with Theo around dyslexia. But to be truth, rest in peace, Merlin, you couldn't remember a line to save your life. Um, but uh, so by the third episode they were like, we're gonna bring you all back, but this one's gonna be about you.
And so Raheem got to shine in the third episode and I was like, okay, let's do this. So, yeah. Nice. It was a, it was a wonderful experience. And it's on YouTube, right? If anyone wants to. Yeah, for sure. Because you were [00:16:00] good. I remember when Karen, thank you. Pulled up the I was YouTube usual bucket hat too.
Right? Totally cute. Yeah. And really good. Yeah. I had a look. Yeah. And I actually thought about you when Malcolm Jamal Warner passed away, what, what was he like as a person? Oh, he was amazing. Um, he was so giving for to us, like we're in the scenes with him, and I think he was really trying to create his own lanes at that point.
He was exec, like executive producing, so like a lot of the time spent off camera. And rehearsal was with Malcolm. Like really just dialing into like what are our characters supposed to be like? And then as I started to get more lines and more one-on-one scenes with him, we really would go into like heavy rehearsal mode where he would really help me tap in to what are the emotions that live underneath the surface that you draw from?
Like what are the real life experiences that allow you to portray realness? But also this is tv, so it's gotta be a [00:17:00] little bigger. Mm-hmm. Right. It can't, it's not like theater's the biggest. If you're gonna do anything small at theater, you're gonna lose. You gotta go huge. But TV you can't go that big, but you can't be regular.
Mm-hmm. You still have to, you have to give it. And so it was, it was an amazing experience. I think for a long time I kind of just wished we had had more opportunities to do that. Yeah. Because he was a great dude. He even like gave me props on time for, there was like an impromptu rap battle that happened.
Amongst those kids and I just spit some De La Soul lyrics and he was like, oh, you make those up? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, for sure. And I was like, I know, you know what this is, but we're good. We're gonna pretend that I made that up. That's great. Okay, so. W you touched on this about following Kenon a little bit, so I would love for you to tell me your story of when and how the two of you met.
Mm-hmm. And [00:18:00] I. We'll start there. Sure. You know how like your parents tell you a lot of things you make a lot of Well, I made a lot of decisions about which of those things I was listening to and following through on which I was not for the good and for the bad. But I think one of, um, the greatest gifts amongst many that my mom gave me was that she was very insistent that I study abroad when I was in college.
Like very insistent. You know, like I mentioned, I grew up in two different places and really grew up with, I think, a, a vast worldview than many people do because I think even by the age of six, like the, the story in the family was, I'd crossed the Atlantic Ocean like 30 some times. Um, and you know, so did already have an appreciation for different cultures and.
Uh, you know, just people move differently right? In different languages. And I also, I'm bilingual, but she was really pressing, like, you need to keep that going. And I think that's [00:19:00] something that was a huge value for my parents of, you know, you're not the only person in the world. There are, people are different everywhere.
Like just go, there's learning to be had everywhere. Um, so travel. And so I, uh, did a study abroad year in Italy. My. So, no, my junior year. Mm-hmm. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. My junior, yeah, my junior year of college. Um, and for me it was amazing 'cause I was studying sculpture, so it's like I can go to Florence, Italy and study sculpture and be like, you know, I can go touch the Michelangelo if I, I Amazing.
Yeah. Um, and my mom really was pressing me to go for a year. Like six months is acceptable, but a year would really be it. Like, really go immerse yourself and like also learn to speak Italian and, uh. I had been accustomed to doing things on my own that were big leaps like this. I went to camp as, you know, sleepaway camp as a young person.
I spent half a year, um, in Israel in [00:20:00] school when I was in high school. So it wasn't, it was actually very exciting for me to like, go and have this adventure, uh, on my own. And the hardest thing was to like fit a shared music collection that I shared with my best friend. In Michigan, like we just had hundreds of cassettes, but we had them together.
And so, you know, this was a blip in time when mini discs were introduced. And so like literally up until the moment that my dad was like, you have to get in the car, like you have to get to the airport right now. I was like, you know, we're recording all of our cassettes on a mini dis because then at least I could take like 60, not like a couple hundred.
Um, and so I was on the plane, uh, listening to my mini dis. And I think I had already in the airport at JFK kind of like peaked at Kenon, you know? Well, because my mom ushered, like as a true teacher, ushered all of us do, who were lollygagging onto the plane so that we weren't gonna miss it. I remember her just getting me going and then anyone who was [00:21:00] around me, she was just like, come on, you gotta get on this plane.
Yeah. So you probably in that group probably. I was probably, you probably noticed. Uh, I definitely noticed you. I think I also, like, I had had a, you know, a best friend that I'd grown up with, that we did everything together, including sharing tapes and so that was the thing I was gonna miss the most. Right.
You're like 16 or no, sorry, we're older at this point. You were 19. I was 19. Um, but, you know, we lived together. This was from fifth grade on, and so I, I definitely like, needed a person and I knew that, and so I think I was already kind of like scoping around of like, who's gonna be my person here? Mm-hmm.
Um. And this was a study abroad program that was a third university. Like Ken and I didn't attend this university, it was like another university's program. Um, and so I was on the plane and I was listening to my mini discs and I had my like, you know, big old baggy jeans and my big old starter or Adidas jacket, my pigtails, and my giant headphones.
And I was thinking, and what year was this? Just [00:22:00] 99. This is 99. Nine nine. Okay. Perfect. Yeah, and I was reading my like graffiti magazines and. Ken found me. It's like, yeah, definitely. That was an easy find and I remember exactly what you were wearing. Well, because it was dope. What was it? You had a like white medium hat on?
Had my white medium hat on. Yeah, and probably my white and blue polo rugby. And your giant north face. I think on my giant USA polo gray sweater on 'cause I was a low life. Shout out. Shout out to all those Polo sweater. I don Polo. Oh, 99 though. That's perfect. Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely tracked out. It was.
So you found her. Yeah. What does that mean exactly? You came up to her in the plane. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean I was, I was leaving everything engineering. I was fed up with engineering and all the, just like same old kids, none that looked like me, none that wanted to kick it with me. Um, I was what's called a middler year at [00:23:00] Northeastern 'cause it's a five year program.
I was in my third year. So You must have been a sophomore. Yeah. 'cause I was in my third year. And, uh, no, I was a junior. I only went back for one more year. 'cause you stayed but you were in a five year? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, we'll figure that out later. I was in my middler year that I remember. Um, and I had already been traveling.
So like for me, I had gone to Africa with my mom. I had my freshman year gone abroad to hang out with a homie in France. And then. Gone, I think that same spring to see a friend in Paris who was doing study abroad. And when I kicked it with him in Paris, I was like, oh, I gotta do this. This is tight. Like I gotta get out of Boston.
I need relief. Um, and so yeah, I was fleeing from Boston. I was fleeing from engineering and I was just like, sign me up for anything really cool and unique. And this program seemed to fit that bill. I was gonna study photography, but really. That's like art for engineers. Like that's not, I had like worked in the photo lab, so I enjoyed [00:24:00] the process of making photos.
So like, I don't know that I was thinking of it as like an art class in particular, but I knew I had to take all my electives in order to do it. And yeah, I was on the plane and I was like, I don't, I don't want to just roam these streets solo. I also would like to have a friend. I'd like her to be a cute girl.
That would be really nice. I'm 20, this is fitting the bill for a 20-year-old young man and yeah, I. You know, I think if you listen to the comparative narrative episode, I say I'm me catting. Where you're just like poking over the seat and just being like, all right, what's going on here? This is a long flight.
And Yeah. But you also had a mini disc player. Yeah. So, and this is, I had a mini disc player very moment in time. I had graffiti mag, I had, um, big headphones, the Sonys, the dj, Sonys. And yeah, I was like, all right, well maybe, you know, we'll trade graffiti mags. And I'm like, you had Life Sucks Die, which I had never seen before, which was really cool.
So good. It was a new mag. I was like, Ooh, let me, I'll show you mine. You show [00:25:00] me your graffiti magazine. Real, real, heavy nerd style, but. It worked. Yeah. And then we really like pretty quickly bought a double jack somewhere in Florence and just walked around. Both plugged in. Yeah. To the same mini disc player.
Mm-hmm. Listening, listening to music, and just like roaming the streets of Florence for four months. Yeah. I don't think, I don't think people really saw us separate, ever. Yeah. It's kind of fun. That's really cool. And I didn't live with Karen, so I had another house, but I don't think people ever saw separate.
Like I just, you moved in with us. I moved in pretty quickly. I was like, I'm good. And that was four months. I was there for four months. Yeah. Karen was there for four months. He was also sort of. On a, on a pause from a long-term relationship that he was in, you know, long-term for 21 year. You know what, I had to be on a pause.
I was in a bad relationship, to be honest with you, that I kept going back to I'm the victim in this. Oh. Oh, well there's a story. [00:26:00] Were you on a break? Is that what you're telling me? I had been broken. I had been broken. Broken and have some freedom. I had broken. Okay. I had been broken up with on a crazy scenario.
And so, no, it was the fact that I even like entertained the idea of going back to that relationship shows I was in a bad, toxic relationship. Mm-hmm. Because the situation, I went to visit someone in another state and got there and they were seeing someone else. Right. Like, that's, you don't, that, that's not how that works out.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So that, but so I needed, it's a chapter I, I needed a fresh, I needed a fresh perspective. Yes. I brought it up only because Ken was only there for a semester. Yeah. And his ex-girlfriend Yeah. Was studying abroad in England the second semester. Yeah. So she did come to Italy. There was a crossover in between.
Crossover. Mm-hmm. And then there was a reconnection. Yeah. And also you went back to the states at that point. And I stayed, um, and I was [00:27:00] heartbroken and which was like really? Gr 'cause I also saw her, right? So it was like not this imagine thing, it was this real thing. Like this was our city and suddenly it was not our city anymore.
Um, and it was great fuel for making like some pretty dope art and spending the next two years in a studio. Yes. Um, and we remained really good friends throughout. This was like the height of our gel pen era too. Mm-hmm. And so we wrote letters to each other, like handwritten letters. I sent you mini disks.
You sent me mini disks. They were hell of kitty mini disks. They're so cute. And um. And just, yeah, and just stayed really, really good friends. And I think, I, I not, I think I knew that like Ken was the person I was supposed to be with, uh, even at like, I was 20 at the time. Um, but I, but I knew, and I think that was the heartbreak where I was like, I'm not gonna have that and I'm never gonna find anything like this.
And so I, you know, you gotta make it work for [00:28:00] yourself. Um. And so when Kennan came back to the states, he and his ex got back together. Yeah, we were on again, off again. It was, yeah, one of those. Yeah, it was bad. Just one of those, as I reflect on it now, I'm like, it was just a bad relationship and I think, I don't know why I stayed in it.
Well, early twenties, I mean, you don't really, you don't really have much to go. You don't know what you're doing. You don't have many at bats at this. These experiences, you need these experiences. I mean, I'm so grateful that we went through them with other people and not with each other. A hundred percent.
So, you know, we spent a couple years That's really true. That is true. We, that is really true. Been a couple years in relationships with different people as just friends and, and we were just friends. Yeah. So even like, you know, I, when I got back to the states, I had not saved enough money to fly back from New York to Michigan.
'cause I'd spent that money on trying to c create a piece of marble that I was bringing back from Italy. Um, so my friends came and picked me up, like drove to New York mm-hmm. And picked me up. Mm-hmm. And so. You know, I got to, I mean, that was probably also my ploy to like hang out again some [00:29:00] more. So that was the first time I also went to your mom's house, you know?
Yeah. And like it's amazing to be there now, 26 years later and be like, I've, I came here first 26 years ago. Yeah. Uh, and we were such babies, you know? True. So we like stayed connected. Same thing when I, I came to visit California 'cause I had family here. You know, and it was also really to just try to find Kenon who is here on one of those internships and you know, your mm-hmm.
Ex was in the picture at the time, but whatever. Um, and being challenging that day too. And, and I mean, it's funny how it challenging that day and you didn't tell me that she was here either, so that's cute to hear you say, you know, you showed up and there was someone else in the picture. Yeah. But we were just like really supportive of one another and really good friends throughout.
And you know, I was dating someone for a few years that I really shouldn't have been. And uh, Kennan was my one friend who worked hard to be friends with him, and he was a difficult person to be friends with. Mm-hmm. Uh, because we just did what it took to like be in [00:30:00] each other's lives and when. I broke up with that person.
Uh, I actually, 'cause we were living together. I came and stayed at Kennan's house 'cause we had another mutual friend too that you lived with. Mm-hmm. But that was, you know, those were my people and that was where I was gonna go. And I, it was like the beginning of the dream again. Um. And you were really polite and you were like, you sure you don't want like a, a break or like to be single for a little bit?
And I was like, no. Like, this is what I want. Exactly right here. Like this is the dream that I thought was fleeting and gone. Yeah. Um, and that was, that was delusional, but like, that was November. I could times, I guess 11th, 2004. Oh yeah. Yep. So five. So that's years later. Ever since then, ever since then, we've been sharing life every day together.
Yeah. I love it. I love it and. You, you were really good friends first. Do you, do you still have those letters? Oh, absolutely. You do. Oh, I love that. Yeah. There's one right [00:31:00] behind. Yeah. Those bubble farmers. Oh my gosh. Public on full display. I love it. I love it. In the house. I still have letters like from my best friend.
Yeah. That we wrote back and forth in elementary school. Wow. And I, it's just. I, I love that when people save letters, so that's fantastic. Do you ever look at them every now and then or show your kids have That's right. You have two sons. You can talk about that too. Oh yes. I haven't looked at 'em in a really long time and actually actually been our 18th wedding anniversary in a few days, but I'm like, that could be kind of a fun thing to do.
Oh my gosh, yes. Those are cute letters. Mm-hmm. I remember writing them, that's for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and I remember really looking forward to yours. Mm-hmm. Now being. Friends first. Would you say that that's the best way to go for a relationship? Highly recommended. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know that everyone has that opportunity.
I don't know that like, I mean, I was a little bit d Lulu and didn't realize what was going on. Um, and kind of like not reading the tea leaves for a few years. [00:32:00] And so that kind of helped. Um, but I knew that I wanted to, I didn't want to lose this person in my life like that. I understood very, very deeply.
I think it was a trip to Japan where I realized that it was a deeper feeling than just friendship, that we, we all went on a trip together and I was like, oh, this is. Okay. And that's like 2005, five, May, 2005. Oh, no, that sense. 2004. No, that had to be five. I guess that had to be May, 2004 before I, November seven we got married, so, yeah.
Yeah. So yeah, it was in 2005 that I finally came around to the fact that this was more than a friendship. So yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of interesting for us that it was necessary. It's like for me, I know that there are parts of Karen that I just absolutely love. Like that are just like, regardless, like those are just that.
I could never find someone who fits a piece like that for me. Um, so yeah, I will always say, we'll always be friends. Like, [00:33:00] always. And that's, that's really crucial foundation. 'cause I actually care about her like a friend. Mm-hmm. You know, like, yeah. Like, you know, I couldn't remember other girlfriend's birthdays.
Like you will say things like that. Like I was not the best. Always. You're the best Ken. Yeah. Thank you. A different type of, I've come a long way of support and mutuality that can exist in a friendship. Um mm-hmm. There is a, mm-hmm. You know, I think when you're meeting somebody in effort to pursue like a romantic relationship with them, there's a certain type of, I don't wanna say agenda, but I can't find like the, you shortcut a little bit, you short, fast, you shortcut, you have an out, you have a desired outcome.
I guess that's what it is. You have a desired outcome. And with friendships, like friendships aren't always seeking an outcome, right? So it's like a little bit more emergent and there's. I think a very, [00:34:00] like, mutual support that happens and mm-hmm. You, you know, there's other people in the life too, right? So there's maybe even, I mean, I'm not a particularly jealous person, but like, maybe that helps also in the realm of jealousy too, that like you, you know, you know, people have multiple friends, right?
Mm-hmm. Um, and that. They share parts of themselves with other people too. Right. And so you kind of, you work to maintain that connection that Right. Or you started on that foundation so you don't feel threatened when suddenly, you know, there's really good friends in the picture. Um, yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. I mean, perfect example is that best friend that Karen spoke about from fifth grade.
Well, she eventually moved to California too. Mm-hmm. And at that time, Karen really was in school, in a relationship, didn't have the bandwidth and zero free time. Yeah. To support a friend just coming to Cali. Excited, wanting to go out. And I had none of those things. I had nothing but time and I was like, oh, well I'll adopt you [00:35:00] because your Karen's best friend from ever, and like, I'd like to know you more.
So like we will hang out. And like, I just remember hanging out with her more than Karen for a few years and just being like, oh, I get to see another part, another side of Karen through this experience and also. Just embed myself in what is, you know, a longstanding friendship. So I can be a part of that too, like mm-hmm.
So I think what happened was it just you find ways to, as friends, to keep connection and so you're, you're vested. So if Karen was studying anatomy, I don't. I don't know much about anatomy, but I know that the body works like a, like a lever. It works like an engineer would, would construct it. So, okay. Tell me a little bit about your anatomy and I'll try to like freak it and make it make sense in my brain.
Mm-hmm. As an engineer. Like it was just moments where I remember a lot about that engineering exams you had to take, not about the content, but like when they were coming up and how important they were to you. Yes. You work at that, you work at that, and I think that's. That sets the tone for, I think [00:36:00] in general, what I feel like there's a lot of grace that Karen has showed me over years, and that we now at this point show each other, which is that like there's a lot of growth that happens over 20 years.
Yeah. Like we're talking, I, I turned 21. You turned 20. Yeah. And so for 25 years we've been growing together like. That takes a lot of grace 'cause you're gonna, you are gonna make mistakes, missteps, do things in ways that you regret and Yeah, you as a friend, we've always been there for each other and, and as a couple we maintain that.
Yeah. Well and. Everyone grows when you start at 20 and 21. One. I hope so. I sure hope so. Exactly. You would hope so. Right? So, so a lot of people will grow apart because they're changing its people. Absolutely. Instead of growing together. So the fact that the two of you, you had that foundation of already.
Mm. So a strong foundation first. Mm-hmm. As young people, I think. Yeah. Wanting to stay connected. Yeah. And she put me onto a ton of music [00:37:00] in those, those early like months and those little mini discs where I was like, I didn't know about, oh my God. Oh, like who? Like who? Oh my God. I'm trying to think of like.
You know, 'cause we were both into like the west coast hip hop, but I had just peaked a little bit of the styles of beyond. But you had people under the stairs. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know about people under the stairs yet. I remember that. And then there was that, I will never remember the name. It was a band, hip hop group from Philly, three dudes.
And we'll never remember the album or else I would've found it by now and we'd play it, but it was so good. I think we have to find that. Oh, we'll have to it. So I just remember wanting you to play that album. We'll have to do a deep dive because I, I might know who Three brothers, I wanna say they're brothers, but they probably weren't.
No, but I, I feel like if, if you like did one of their songs, we could, Philly, they were from Philly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, there was some just good, were they friends with like Bell biv, Devo and stuff? I hope so. Yeah, I don't think so. Or at least like, you know, or in boys to [00:38:00] men. Like somehow. Exactly, yes.
Somehow I did not doubt it somehow because this was like the era of like backpack. Yeah, like we went, when we were together in Europe, we took a trip to Amsterdam and half of that trip was to go to Fat Beats because the new Foh MA was coming out, his first album, internal Affairs had come out. The Black Star album, the most def it was Black Star.
All of those had just come out, so like that's great. Half of our trip to Amsterdam was to go to Fab Beat. Totally. To get beat and ask them to put the music on so we could hear it. 'cause we had only been hearing Italian pop. Yeah. Which somehow just made its way back into our kitchen. Recently. Did it?
Never did. Remember? Never. Wasn't it my cousin that was like, oh my God, I found this band. And we were like, wait a second. Oh yeah, that's true. That's true. All over Italy. Joti. Yeah. Joti in 2000. Amazing. Amazing. How that, so you were married in 2005? Is that what, seven. Seven. Oh, sorry. 2005 is when it started.
Yeah. Okay. When you That's our date of bursary. Yeah. End of 2004. [00:39:00] Okay. So 2007 you were married? Yeah. And. When did you have First? First? We had in 2009. Yeah. Don't get that wrong. No, no. Yeah. We have a almost 16-year-old and a 10-year-old now. Wow. And it's like, you know, just as we're sitting here and talking about like.
Origin, you know, like relationship origin stories. And I just, we had a lot of people in our life that were like, you and Kenna need to be together forever and make babies, you know? And I'm like, it annoyed the shit outta me when people say, um, you know, and then the second you get, it's like, when are you getting married?
And the second you get married, it's like when you and kid, the kids, you think it's over when you give them a kid and then they're like, when you bring a mother, I exactly never stops. It never stops from the family. Uh, but yeah, it is really wild to sit here and go like, there are these two. Very grown humans that were the, that dream.
Uh, and you know, one of them is nearly the age, like just three years away from the age when we met. It's bananas. Uh, it's really [00:40:00] bananas. Yeah, that is, and they're perfect. They're, I can't wait to usher him onto a plane. Perfect. Oh, did I say that for a study abroad experience? For whatever, for whatever experience.
Just go, go mu cat on the plane, homie. That's right. I was gonna say, you want, are you telling your kids the same thing about travel? We should, no. Yeah, I like, I like definitely, I wouldn't say no. So we are really fortunate that I wouldn't say the same thing. Truth, um, you know, an outcome of having family that's spread all over the states and the world is that there's a lot of distance.
Yeah. But, uh, another outcome is that we travel a lot to like a neutral place. Yeah. Uh, to meet up. Mm-hmm. And so, um, our kids are really fortunate. I in large thanks to both of our parents to like travel to a lot of different places too. Yeah. And so I think that is really central, like just in our general family story.
Yeah. And both of our families and, uh, [00:41:00] I think we keep kind of open and they've gone to summer camp and they spend summers away. And so like really this idea of you can do this and mm-hmm. They're now starting to like notice like yeah, I have friends in different states and I go and I meet up with them there and then, you know, we go in.
Our oldest slept over at a friend's house in Brooklyn and like took the subway home, you know, the next morning. Like, so yeah, I think we're encouraging of those same experiences and telling a lot of our own stories of studying abroad and when that happened for us, and why that made sense at that time and why it could make sense at a different time for them.
So I think it's a different style of telling them. Mm-hmm. Uh, but definitely trying to expose them to the benefit of the experience of just like. Seeing bigger, you know? Mm-hmm. Like seeing beyond your everyday and Yeah, like I, I had been to Senegal, uh, Guinea and the Ivory Coast before going to Italy. I had been to Germany before going to Italy.
But [00:42:00] when on my way to Italy and meeting someone from Jerusalem, I was like, wait, what? You're from where? Mm-hmm. The like how the Bible, like you're from the place of like there like that, that exists still. Like I was. While even being worldly for a kid from Brooklyn, my, my vision wasn't opened as far as it could be.
Mm-hmm. And so I think our kids have gotten the benefit of my widened vision. Karen's already large aperture. Shout out to Aperture. Um, and, uh. Yeah, I think that it won't be so much of a telling. You have to do anything. And so that's the difference. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's the, that's, I mean, maybe, you know, each kid's different.
Maybe one will adopt it on their own. The other will have to get told, I don't know. We'll see. Right. Yeah. Who knows, right. But they're, but it's in their lives. That's what matters, so. Mm-hmm. They're already been exposed to it, where so many kids, let's be real, especially these days. Don't, don't even leave their, the state that they live in.
Yeah. My [00:43:00] sons has a few friends. They've never left. I have friends, even the Bay Area, I have friends who are just now in their forties are leaving California for the first time. Yeah. So, yeah. It's, which I understand it's a big state and it's really pretty. Oh, and there's nothing wrong. You don't have to go very far to find something very different in California.
There's nothing like that. No, I, I, I love the idea of just exposing your kid to the possibilities, and there's something about immersing yourself to, you know, in a different culture and all the discomfort and the, you know, fish outta water. Mm-hmm. That happens in that experience all the way to. Um, yeah.
Your, your aperture widening and then also I think when you return, like you bring mm-hmm. All of that perspective and all of those lessons and the way you look at other people who maybe they're new to being here is completely different because you've had a taste of that experience. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I went, I came back from my study abroad and realized that by the time I had, you know, I had [00:44:00] gone to Europe with a limited knowledge of Europe, maybe I'd been to Germany.
One, one country I had left Europe having been to like. Eight countries and then came back to the States and realized, well, I've only been to like 10 states. How many states I've been hit, of some states. So, which are little countries in comparison. Right. I've only been to like so many states. I need to start going to more states within the us.
Yeah. And for years after that, we drove. Mm-hmm. Like my friends and I would make an annual pilgrimage to Michigan, to ano, to a friend's house, summer home. But we would take a different route. Like one year we went up through the Badlands. The other year we went down the Grand Canyon painted desert and came up to Mississippi.
Right. We just did it different ways to see the states and we've kept that going with the kids where we've done long road trips and been like, all right, this country's vast and, and and wide and varied too. Like you should see more of it as well. That's why every state is different. Yeah. You drive through different states and you go, okay, where am I now?[00:45:00]
Yep. You even crossed the border from California to Nevada. And almost immediately at the border. Oh, the ve everything changes. Changes. It's so, so bizarre. Like when you're up in Tahoe and you go and all of a sudden you're going, I'm in desert. Country here and I was just, there were evergreen evergreens and now it's low it bushes, I mean.
Mm-hmm. It's so wild. It's such a wonderful way to like inspire curiosity. Like I was just thinking about as we're talking, like, you know, today people have visibility into much more of the world at their fingertips than we had at the time just because of smartphones. Mm-hmm. And um. But it's not, it's just not the same as being immersed in a space or, you know, engaging with someone or having to navigate through whether it's in the same country or not.
Mm-hmm. Uh, and. Yeah, just that I think that it just inspires so much curiosity. Mm-hmm. Like, we'll go on those road trips and it's like, why does this look like this here? You know? Mm-hmm. And why does it cost this here? But it costs something else there and Yeah. Uh, and the [00:46:00] lo local people who live there.
Exactly. Sorry, go ahead. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And you know, they sound different and they seem to move a little different and Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Where else are you gonna see a, so the last remaining soda jerk operating soda stores. Right. You gotta, you get Dixie Doodle, you gotta go to Indiana. You gotta go out to like Indiana for that, you know?
Yeah, yeah. Elk cart, right? Elkhart's. Where the, that's where the RV museum is. Museum, yeah. RV Museum. That's awesome. I know. That's so cool. That's actually a dream of mine is to take. You know, some sort of RV or a camper and just drive. You need to do it because I rent an apartment, I don't care. So gotta do it.
When my son graduates high school, I'm, I just wanna take my microphones and just travel across the country. Meredith people rent their own RVs. Yeah. So people who own rent, like Airbnb. Yeah. Oh, I should do that. Yeah. It's really the way to go. It's better than your 'cause then you can kind of get a.
Accustomed, [00:47:00] like a, has a built out personality. It's not just like the, not just Camp USA like, or whatever. RV America. Yeah. Which just some generic white box, which also was cool. But yeah, we've done both Like a home. Yeah. Okay. No, that's, I, I'm gonna do that. Yeah. That's great. I think you can do that whenever, like, you can do that with, with Dee, like Donovan should go with you.
Yes, he should. Because it's fun actually. Yeah. And he's also been to so many different places and everything. And once again, having family in California. But living in New York for 15 years. Yeah. He's been traveling across the country. Mm-hmm. Since he was three months old. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it's the same kind of deal.
And he drove across country with his dad when we moved out here again. There you go. You know, but yeah, it's important. It does. I, I just love it. Doing that for your kid. Absolutely. Whether they want to keep doing it or not. They've had experiences. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also like America's so young in many ways.
Like you know, America, the way you it, you're talking about Israel or Italy. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's just like really starts to have you thinking about like time. Mm-hmm. [00:48:00] Like having a different relationship with time and I feel, I remember its really important of mine saying that the US is like a teenager on a skateboard compared to.
Yeah. Other countries around the world. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's so true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, what we think is old is like infantile to like when you're in Rome and you're walking the streets of Rome and you're like, and there's the Colosseum. Okay. This is old. Yeah. This is really big and old. Yeah. I traveled through Europe with my brother when he went, came out of the Air Force and two or a month and a half, I think.
We just traveled around the entire, all of Europe, and it was just the best experience roll up to like castles. And you're like, oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Oh, this is like straight up just a castle. I could go in. Yeah. Oh, okay. And how old is this? What I'm definitely going in, let's go into Castle where everything here is brand new in comparison.
Brand new comparison. Yeah. My, yeah. Our homes are like, we're like, oh, that's a, that's a hundred year home, old home. And people are like, wow, no. You're like, no, actually that's not.[00:49:00]
I hope you enjoyed that episode with Ken and Karen and that you'll be back for part two. Thank you so much for being here. I.
