Brad and Jess Part 1
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the average nineties GAL podcast. Join me as I share my own journeys through life, how I got and continue to get through them, as well as real stories from real people in this crazy world. Let's get through it together.
Hello and welcome to the average nineties GAL podcast. If you are a regular listener, then you may have noticed that I haven't been posting publishing episodes in a while, and that is because I had about four to five weeks of multiple unforeseen circumstances. That have happened, everything's fine. It's just things that have gotten in the way or have kept me from even editing and doing the podcast at [00:01:00] all.
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So thank you so much. Okay. Onto the episode. This is part one of my conversation with my friends, Brad and Jess. In part one, they talk about their upbringing and their paths through life that have led them to where they are now, which is their career bartending experience, and what led them to bartending and now [00:02:00] to being bar owners.
So I hope you enjoy this part one episode. And that you also enjoy that. It really does feel as if you are a fly on the wall of a conversation between friends and enjoy the laughing and the personalities of all of us, uh, chatting together. So once again, thank you for being here and onto the episode. All right, Brad and Jess, welcome.
Thanks. So glad to have you both here. So as I start every single guest episode. And maybe we'll start with Jess. So if you both could go into your generation, the year you graduated, high school, family dynamic, family background, where you grew up, all the things. Sure thing. So depending on what dates you look at, I'm either Gen X, which is what I claim, or elderly [00:03:00] millennial.
'cause I'm right on the edge. 1980. Oh yeah, you are. Yeah. I still stand by Gen X. Yes, absolutely. I would choose that too. That's hundred percent. I had the most influence on my growing up, I'd say the millennial ever did. Yeah, because doesn't it technically it goes from 65 to 80, right? Yeah. So that does include 80.
Yes. I'm assuming so. Yeah. Go with GenX. Tell millennials alone. Just go Gen X. Yeah. And it's how you feel. Which one do you feel closest to? Exactly? Yep. I graduated high school 99 from. Indiana College Town, Bloomington, Indiana University, one sibling, sister, younger, and a parent. Her parents were divorced when I was 10.
And you were born and raised in? Born and raised in Bloomington, Indiana. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Great. Thanks, Brett. All right. Born the Gen X thing is unmistakable for me. I'm smack dab in the middle of it if it goes from 65 to 80. I was born in 73. I couldn't get more Gen X than I am. Yep. Graduated high school in 1991.
There was no [00:04:00] internet by the time I graduated high school in 1996. Should have been 95, but I'm not that bright. Uh, there was, so it was, I, I was technically, I still see it today because I'd love to go back in time and get rid of the internet because it's terrible. Then I was the last generation of turn 18 before the internet happened.
So to the year pretty much, 'cause went in his freshman year. College, no internet came out. Everybody had email, so it was pretty wild. I grew up in Westchester County, just outside of New York City, one sibling. He's six years older than me. And speaking of generations, my dad was born in 1918. I was born 73.
So do the math. That's 55 years later. He was part of the greatest generation as we all. Kind of World War ii, all the rest. So I like to think I had somewhat of a unique perspective on age and generations and all the rest. And that's about that. And how old was your mom when she, my mom, 15 years younger than my dad.
It was both their first marriages. So my dad got married at the age of [00:05:00] 48 and my mom at the age of 33, and we all know back in the sixties, that was unheard of. So they were bucking the system. They weren't even like bohemian hip hippies or anything like that. They were just like. It's funny for a to which was old without being married.
33 for my mom. That's like old maid status back in the 1960s, you know? Yeah. You're a spinster at that point. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But they, I look at it like they just didn't have any desire to before that, and they did. Yeah. And I, it's always funny because growing up, you don't know how old your parents are when you're like seven years old.
Yeah. Everybody older than you as an adult. You're at the dinner table, you don't know. You're realize you're listening to stories from the 1930s, the Great Depression World War ii. You don't realize that nobody else. Is getting those exact stories except for maybe their grandparents, but they're not getting 'em on a daily basis from parents that old, and I'm gonna do this a lot.
I forgot what I was talking about,[00:06:00]
but having to learn in your twenties that all this stuff or that I. Knew all this stuff from World War II to depression. Yeah. I don't even need history class. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. My, my dad's joke was US History. I got that. Yeah. My dad's favorite joke was, I had my first drink the day prohibition was repealed and it's, that's wild.
Absolutely true. If you do the math. Yeah. 1933 was when prohibition was repealed. My dad would've been 15 years old. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. And so that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I was gonna say and yeah, that's wild. Was he in World War ii? Absolutely. Lieutenant in the Navy in World War ii. He graduated college in 1941 went because spring of 1941, we were, we still weren't in World War II as of yet, so if you had a college degree, by the time December 7th came around, the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor and we jumped into the war, you everybody knew they were going.
So they were gonna get drafted, or you better just start. So if you had a college degree who's 21 years old with a college degree, so you basically the US [00:07:00] military said. Choose a branch and go to officer training school. So he chose the Navy and what the US was doing at the time. When you go do a draft, it's not like they have facilities waiting and ready to go to train hundreds of thousands of troops in a draft.
So what they do is they take over colleges. And a lot the state schools were completely safe from losing all their students because the state schools, they state schools became basically training grounds. 'cause the colleges have dorms, they have fields, they have all the necessities that you need to train.
And a lot of the private schools back then were. Closing because for instance, I went to Notre Dame, so did my dad. These are small, private schools, all boys. So these kids are going to the war there, there's no doubt about it. Mm-hmm. So a lot of schools closed, but Navy took, went to Notre Dame and said, we will use your facilities, please, obviously, and [00:08:00] the school can stay open.
'cause they still had a small enrollment while the Navy used the campus as training grounds. So to this day, Notre Dame and Navy play football every year. 'cause of that, because Notre Dame would not be a school anymore. Aw. They said to Navy, interesting. We play every year. Oh, interest. I didn't. That and the Notre Dame Navy rivalry, if you wanna call it, it's more of respectful sportsmanship goes on to this day.
Obviously Notre Dame dominates the win-loss, but at the same time it's a completely different, it's the greatest example of sportsmanship I think I've ever seen in the sense that every year Notre Dame plays Navy, no matter where it is. At the end of the game, whoever. Both teams go over to the losing section of the student section.
Both teams arm in arm, and they sing the alma mater of the losing team. Oh wow. And then that's usually in one corner where if it's Navy, they have ultimate shipment over there in the corner [00:09:00] and Armin arm basically just swing to whatever the home and MA is. And then after they go to the losing team, both teams go to the opposite corner, to the winning teams student section and do the exact same thing.
That's great. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, so it's really interesting. E example of sportsmanship that will not go away. As a student at Notre Dame, I knew maybe something special. It's not, we play 'em every year, but we don't hate them at all. We, no, we play them with the utmost respect, the coaches do and an interesting little, and the history of all of that and how it's stuck.
Yeah. Yeah. How that actually works. It's really cool. So it's, yeah, having an older father like that, like having that story in 1941, he graduated high school and then went or graduated college. And then went to World War II and fought in the Pacific Japanese from 1943 to 1940. Then he got out in 46. Yeah.
Yeah, my grandfathers were in that war. Yeah. E exactly. Not my dad. Yeah. You learn that after, when you're seven years old, you don't know. By the time you're like 20, you realize Jesus. My parents are old as hell, [00:10:00] but especially my generation, like every single person. My year, it was almost exactly to the nose skip generation, like I my dad was exactly everybody who was born in 70 three's grandparents' age.
Yeah. So it was like being raised by grandparents. They did have different.
Sort of energy. Yeah, it's like a, an older school way of raising kids, but not with a ruler to the knuckles kind of thing. More my, my curfew might've been a little bit earlier than everybody else's, but I could drink in high school if I wanted to. If I said I was gonna the bars and I was 16 years old, they didn't, they were like, yeah, that's what everybody did when we were there.
So it's, that's what you can't, so this was this weird dichotomy of strict and then very lax, go outside and come back when the lights come on. When the street lights come on kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of parents, so you said your parents divorced Yep. When I was 10. Yeah. So what was that like for you?
What was your, the dynamic and [00:11:00] being raised? Uh, yeah. At that time, no, they, my mom is very protective. Overprotective dad is a hippie. Hmm. Right on dad. Yeah. But yeah, no, they got divorced when I was 10, but they fought all the time. So it's one of those where people are like. So was that really hard? Was it, did that make you really sad?
I'm like, no, they're not arguing all the time. This is great. Yeah. And now when we're tired of mom, go over to dad's and then dad's a bachelor and Yeah. I'm not gonna be here right now. I'm gonna go do something fun. Okay. Like we got TV and pizza and we're doing great. Yeah. Yeah. Independence. Basically, yeah.
Yeah. A lot more independence. Yeah. Which was a such an interesting shift from our mom where it was, couldn't be outta her sight for the most part. And then dad is, I've got the, it wasn't that he was leaving us to go party. He had like meetings and things to go to. He was on an environmental council. He was a reporter.
Was he not a teacher at iu? Not at that time. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. No, he was a reporter for the local newspaper. He would have to [00:12:00] go cover government meetings, go do interviews. He was, like I said, a member of a. An environmental land Trust group, so he would have those meetings. So he wasn't just leaving us to go hardy.
Were, were your parents cooperative with each other with sharing custody and raising the kids? Yeah. Yeah. There was no fight with that, but they did not speak to each other pretty much. Once they were divorced and it was, dad drove up to the end of the driveway and picked us up. And then, oh, and they, so not even like a hey, like just more of a, yep.
Gotcha. Nope, they had no interest in talking to each other, but none of them fought over the custody or anything like that. No. Gotcha. Cool. No, that's good actually. Yeah. Yeah. It was just, yeah. There's good and bad of divorce, I'm sure. Yeah. It's like, it sounds like yours. Not that it was all wine and roses, but it was No, of course.
It was acceptable and doable as a youth. Yeah, they did split custody. So we were at my dad's two days a week and then every other Saturday and then the rest of the time at mom's. Gotcha. And speaking of iu, what is it like growing up in a college town like that? It was great, especially [00:13:00] being in Indiana, it exposed me to a lot of diversity to where then other people in Indiana be like, you're moving to New York City.
That's intense. I'm like, why? I grew up around people from. All over the world. It's an international school with the School of Music and the Kelly Business School, and so many like international schools. Sorry, the horn is pulling. Hey, we're in Brooklyn, New York, by the way, at Jess's apartment. So I was gonna say that.
I forgot to say that that's true. So if you hear anything in the background Yeah. Say in an industrial zone. Yeah, yeah. Car noise, murders, whatever. It's Brooklyn. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Murders outside my car. Sorry. Murders. Yeah. Yeah. People from down south, we murder each other all day long. Yeah, exactly.
Apparently bring on the National Guard. This place is so unsafe. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I was around a lot of people from. International backgrounds and college town, so a little more educated. But since [00:14:00] still also close to rural, like I grew up, my elementary school had kids from the university whose or parents were at the university, kids from the trailer park, kids from the country.
So even my elementary school from the get go, I was around so many different types of backgrounds. Yeah. That it makes you a little more well rounded and more accepting of everybody. Absolutely. Yeah. When you're around education, yeah. Whether you're in the classrooms or not, you have a lot more culture being, it's kinda like living in a city.
There's just more culture around people. There's more people with education. It's more people who traveled. Yeah. And that I think is one of the most important things of life. Yeah. The worst people I know don't travel. Yeah. Don't they never leave their home? Oh, was I gonna say Sorry. No, it was on that track.
No, I just lost it. Just like you're, yeah. As I interrupt people because I'm an asshole. Oh, I'm sorry. Can I curse on this? Fuck yes you can. Thank you very much. Sweet. Oh, I remember that. Um, there, I, it was an [00:15:00] interesting time too in the nineties where they started making more of a move to have to accept more international students, or, sorry, out-of-state students so they could get the out-of-state tuition.
So I remember having friends a couple years older than me, whose grades weren't bad, but not amazing, not getting into our hometown college because they were taking people with worse grades. But out-of-state tuition, the out-of-state thing, n IU has basically taken over the whole city at this point. The hospital.
Huh? What's the enrollment like 30. Oh, easily. I feel like it was 30 when I was growing up. Oh, okay. So it's bigger than that now. Bigger than that now. Yeah. Yeah. It's a big school. Yeah. And they're all of the state too. But you're talking about the Bloomington campus? No, I'm talking about the local campus.
Yeah, campus. It basically school year, it doubled our population. Oh, students versus us, which in the summers was always my favorite time. 'cause we got our town back. Yeah. That's, sorry, excuse me. Yeah, like in your. Immediate neighborhood. Did you have like college kids living like down the road like, oh, here come these assholes.
Oh, you did. So you really, well, it's [00:16:00] breaking away. I think of breaking away. That is Bloomington. That's Bloomington. That's what it makes me think. Like actually my dad lives on the street that was shot on. So you can see the house that they lived in is across the street from my dad's house. Oh. Or cat. A corner from my dad's, I think.
And by the way. Breaking away reference is very Gen X. Yeah. Yes. It's Millennials Have no idea what you're talking about. For, for those of you who, dunno, it's a bicycle movie. They're all Googling it right now. There's, it was an excellent, yes. Fantastic.
So you eventually end up in New York City? Yes. But can you tell me your, basically your background that led you here? When I was in high school, my senior year, basically, I didn't wanna do classes anymore, so I had an independent study and an internship. Both of them I did out of the community access TV station in our local community.
And then. When I graduated high school, got a job [00:17:00] there and then moved to California in 2001 to Oakland. Things didn't really work out, work, living situation the way I had hoped, or my one of my roommates had hoped. So we both left after three or four months, came back to Indiana. I walked into the TV station.
My boss asked if I wanted my job back, did not use my return flight. Stayed in Indiana and worked for another seven years, six years at the TV station. Was in a relationship when that ended. I happened to have some friends who were moving to New York and New York was where I ultimately wanted to be. The boyfriend at the time said he didn't wanna stay in Indiana, but.
Especially after a while realized he was absolutely gonna stay in Indiana. He was absolutely gonna wanna have kids, which I never did, and sure enough, owns a house, married two children were buds. I went to his wedding, it's, he's great. But yeah, so it just worked out well that. The places I wanted to go were New Orleans or New York [00:18:00] and had some friends move into New York.
So moved to Brooklyn in 2007 and never looked back. Never looked back, yeah. Yeah. Had a brief stand as a flight attendant in there, as a way to move here. Did that for about a year, and then moved on to veterinary assistant and then bartender and bar owner. Yeah. And so when did you start bartending The year?
15 years ago. 16 years ago now. Yeah. And we'll get to that in a 2002nd. Nine 10 2010. 2010. Yeah. Okay. And we'll get that to that in a second too, for the two of you. But I, so you mentioned going to Notre Dame and your dad went to Notre Dame. Did your brother go to Notre Dame? No, he didn't. No. Okay. So you and your dad?
Yeah. So tell me your, I was born like with a little Notre Dame flag in my crib. Yeah. Yes, you. Were raised outside of New York City, but can you tell me about your cat? People in, people in the city love saying, I'm from upstate. You're so far. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, it's hilarious. I love that. It's hilarious.
Yeah. Westchester people [00:19:00] do not claim they're from the city, but they know they're also not from upstate, but talk to somebody from upstate. Like truly that is a place. And they'll say, Westchester's not upstate. And then you tell people in the city, you from Westchester, they say, oh yeah, upstate. So we're like this random little county.
I grew up six miles outside the Bronx. Yeah. So New York City's always been my immediate sphere of influence. Yeah. So I've moved away, but I've basically always been based around here. The family's here and we're pretty much been here since my dad's side of the family. 1653. Whoa. Yeah. We're Ed's having an old dad.
You know these Exactly. Because I, yeah, he knew the people that got here in 1653. Oh, I remember them. Yeah, we French you. And it's funny because everybody in America, it's very common to say, where are you from? Meaning in different country that doesn't exist anywhere on in planet Earth. You go to Ireland and say.
You from, they're gonna tell you the town, not what country they're from. You know what I mean? Or they're somebody a hundred years ago was from. Mm-hmm. So even like with [00:20:00] that, with my dad's side of the family being French hu nuts, 1653, this country wasn't even open yet. Settled in Staten Island and New Rochelle.
But people are like, oh, then you're French. I'm like, absolutely not because I can trace my French heritage. To the people that were French, who were French, hated it so much. They found out something else opened and they left. And they left. They left the frenchness, they left. There's no, the Irish have a lot of the Italians, a lot of that sense of pride.
But if you came here as a French, you get out in 1653. You haven't been French in four. It's been a while. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so New York has always been pretty much, I've lived in the city a few different times. I've lived in Manhattan. Several times, Queens, Brooklyn. The only place I haven't really lived is Staten Island.
Oh. In the Bronx. But I basically grew up right near the Bronx. Yeah, you're right there. Yeah. But so what was your path at, so you went to college? Yeah. What was your path? Jess was talking about how she [00:21:00] basically found bartending over the car. That was. That was made from 16 years old. I was gonna bars at a young age now 'cause I'm an alcoholic, but just because that's what has always been my thing.
And so bar business was unavoidable. Not unavoidable, but it was just what I wanted to do. Even going to college and all the rest. I was like my, my senior thesis was like an idea for a bar. I was a design major and so I just went straight basically into, I was bartending in college. In New York City, friends of my brothers, because he was six years older than me, so he knew some people and I got in that way.
I started bartending when I was basically 18 years old. I would say. I didn't just stumble into bartending. My first job was at a coffee shop slash service. Oh yeah. So you were, yeah. So you started in I was service industry as always. Yeah. And also, uh, being the flight attendant. That's complete service industry.
Yeah. Holy shit. That's more service industry than the bar industry. Yeah. It's 30,000 feet up service industry. Yeah. And when I was 21, I used to joke that I was gonna be the first female bartender at the local dive bar while I, where I always hung out. Oh, there you go. But they didn't hire women back then.
Oh [00:22:00] man. Oh man. When I moved away, it came back and there were women working there. I was like, son up a bitch. Is that bar still there? Oh yeah. Yeah. It's the owner's kids took it over. So now it's more of a college bar than it is a dive bar. Gotcha. Yeah, because IU took over everything. Yeah. Thank you. Yes.
But you lived in North Carolina for a little bit, right? Yeah, so when I worked for these guys that owned a bunch of bar, they were, they had gone to high school with my brother and they were in their mid twenties, had opened like a bar in Manhattan, upper East Side, typical right outta college type of places.
They did well and, and they, back in the nineties, they were like, Hey. 96 Olympics are happening in Atlanta, so why don't we go down there and not really a popup, but let's go open a bar down there basically before the Olympics come around there. And they went to Buckhead, which is a very popular social neighborhood.
And so they, they exploded while I was in college. And when I got out, I was like. [00:23:00] Hey, so they had places in, now, Charlotte, North Carolina, Atlanta, New York, and they were gonna, these smaller cities, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Tampa, where they can get bigger spaces into these smaller cities where there'll be like the warehouse districts.
They'd be like, oh, the bars are down there. Like the Pittsburgh's got the strip and, but their headquarters were now in Charlotte, North Carolina. And it was like, Hey, I just graduated college. You wanna. I can manage one of your place, whatever, so bring me on. So they just, they moved me down to Charlotte.
I'd never been there. I was down there for three years and they were opening bars and these big sort of clubs kind of thing around the country. And they, when I was with them, they probably had maybe eight. And while I was with them and up until the, they stopped, they probably had 20, 30, 40 places. I can't remember what it's, oh wow.
So I moved out there and just spent my mid twenties in Charlotte and had a blast hung out with all the other bartenders and we just ran that town. 'cause once again, small town like New York City, you're a very small fish in a very big [00:24:00] town. Yeah. You go down to Charlotte in the nineties, you're a very big fish.
Very small town. Yeah. So it's, it was cool. I had a great time, but it was time to get back to New York and I started managing a bar up here that I knew from. All those kind of people. Yeah. And what was your idea for a bar when you were in college that, what was your thesis? Oh, wow. That's really funny. Wow.
Was it your current bar? I lemme Yeah. This is, well, because I, I started my thesis, I did get kicked out of school the middle of my senior year. Oh. So I had begun it. I was a BFA. Major Bachelor of Fine Arts. I was with Design. I took all the art classes and all the rest, and I was, but I was and am an asshole and I didn't go to school, you know what I mean?
Like I was in college. Yeah. But I fucked up my education where it was like I was there, I was smart enough to be there. I was, I was, [00:25:00] but it just wasn't, it probably wasn't where I should have. To an extent, but because it's a Catholic university, it's a conservative place. It is not. It is by no way, shape, or form a religious school where that was the most important.
Yes, religious iconography everywhere from the golden dome to crosses in every. Classroom and all the rest. But at the same time, like I had gotten a great education through, I was, I went to Catholic high school, all boys Catholic high school, and I got a good education. Although I barely went to school very often.
Yeah, you just to class. I was, yeah. I was immature and I went to, but I was immature and I didn't get what I needed to and they knew that, and that's why I got kicked out. And so that's why I never finished my, my my bar, which I can't remember the name of the place because I'd only done three weeks of work on it, to work on it until they told me to get the fuck in.
Oh shit. That's funny. That went [00:26:00] way deeper than I thought. Sorry about that. It's alright. See, I was gonna say, it's why I only went to college for one semester and then I got to hell out before I had any debt. Seriously. Nope. I don't wanna be doing this. And then I moved to California, right when, yeah, this California, that was your first choice or that was like the first opportunity to get out of Indiana kind of thing.
And Bay was a definitely a. An idea of something. But yeah, it was just the first opportunity. I had a friend who was starting a small record label, former coworker, and then two of my coworkers were going out with him to do that. And I was like, I hate college. I don't wanna do this anymore. Can I come out to supposed to be Berkeley?
And then ended up being Oakland instead. But it was like, can I go out to California with you guys? And three months later I moved to California. So there you go. Yeah, I did technically finish out my first semester. Didn't go to class, took all my finals, got a solid C average with no class the last month and a half.
Yeah, there you go. But still passed my finals and then, yeah. Never looked back. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:00] I'm a full believer in the fact that I don't think anyone should go straight from high school to college. Absolutely. And you have, and right now that is approaching fast for you. Yeah, Al right. Oh yeah. That I tell him.
Yeah. I'm like, there's zero pressure because I don't think. Anyone is ready for that. Yeah. Complete. Couldn't agree with you more. Yeah. So go to community college, go travel the world. And does he, do you think he under, is he now 14? 14? Yeah. So he's going into high school. So he is got, these are long years.
Yeah. But they're also very short ones. Very quick. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. As a mom for you. Are, you've been telling that, obviously. Is he, does he get it yet? Does he understand that? Yeah. Is he looking at it like, oh, cool, I don't have to go to college? Or is he looking at, I understand what you're talking about, and, uh, use that year?
Maybe a little bit of both. Yeah. Of, oh, cool. I'm, I don't have the pressure. Yeah. But he goes to a high school that is very college oriented, so Yeah. You're basically the kids that go there, go to college pretty much. Which I actually just wanna say to the school, could you maybe have [00:28:00] some other. Show, show kids that they have other paths to go on, but freaking trade school for crying out.
Exactly. That should be in high school. Apprenticeships every day. Apprenticeships. Apprenticeships. Yeah. A hundred percent Work-based learning like where is that? And that more and more I think exactly is becoming more. Yeah, and I'm glad you're on the front actually, that one too, because I truly believe that is the way to raise a child, especially the way I went.
I should have taken a year off. If I did, I would have. I still took the year off and went for a semester and then quit. Then the year after that. The year after that. But yeah, because like actually getting kicked outta school my senior year, I had one semester left. What kind of an idiot gets kicked outta school was as an art major.
God damn. I told you I was ed an asshole. So you know. The year I took off, I was, I worked in bars. I managed a bar on the upper West side. I went to school. I went to Fordham in the Bronx for one semester, and I went to Manhattan College up in the [00:29:00] Bronx also for a semester. And worked and lived in the city myself, I'm alone, my friends were just coming to graduate school.
Mm-hmm. I was just living in the city like doing that. I got absolutely all a's I had everything together. It wasn't even, I was like, oh, I, of course I wanted to go back and graduate and Notre Dame, trust me, does not wanna fuck up their graduation ratio. Yeah. They would like me to graduate, so they just said, get the fuck outta here.
Take some classes, come back to us in a year. And I did let me back in. Oh, and you did do that? Oh yeah. Okay. I think I had. Eight credits to do. I took three classes when, and I did graduate, but that year I took off was invaluable. Yeah. Like it was, it's now great. I'm still an immature asshole, but I know my, I know I learned something that that year off and it wasn't out of fear.
It wasn't out of, it was actually out of, okay. You have to get a job. You were being an adult. Exactly. You gotta do it. You were becoming an adult. Yeah. I relied on my parents, obviously for everything. I'm a spoiled fucking brat. We didn't grow, [00:30:00] grow up with like lots of money at all. But they worked and they sent me to everything and paid for fucking everything.
You know, it's like there's, there's no money. Coming at the end of our lives. My mom's 91 years old right now. I'm not expecting any. We didn't own much. We didn't, I'm not expecting anything as far as like an inheritance much. Right. But what I did get was. Sad inheritance over the course of my life. With them paying for a lot of things, it helped me out and understanding.
When I did get outta school, they didn't throw me outta the house. Okay. They were like, get an apartment in the city and we'll help you with that right off the bat and you get a job and go to school. And I did. And I learned that year. And I think if I had that option like before school, I think I would've taken that.
Yeah, I think that would've been great. I think. You should really, and Donovan's obviously next four years is gonna really start to understand that. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Oh, I yap. Sorry. It's a podcast. We can, it's, [00:31:00] there's three of us, not one.
Yeah. So since we talked about the bartending, that's what two of you very much have in common. You're both now also bar owners. Mm-hmm. When did, so tell everybody what your bar is. Jess. First and when you opened Mine is Mama tried in Sunset Park. We opened in March of 2021, so when it wasn't locked down anymore, but it was still restricted hours, six foot distance between people, not.
Couldn't hang out inside the bar. He had to be outdoors for the first couple of months we were open and then after that it went back to normal. I just want hell of a time to open a bar. It's, that is Chuck. To anybody in this industry that is unreal. Like luckily we have a nice big backyard and we're under the bqe, so we're already a little isolated, but it, yeah, it was definitely an interesting time to, to decide to do this.
Yeah, for sure. I will say we were already [00:32:00] discussing it beforehand. And then the lockdown happened. I texted my business partner from Indiana, where I went back for three months and said, woo. Good thing we didn't do that. Huh? And he responded with, oh, don't worry, we still will. Yeah. Yeah. Brad, now onto you.
Just then, I'm gonna ask the two of you to just chime in on. Questions that I'll just throw out there, but tell everyone your bar and when you opened. Oh, American Cheese opened December of 2013, so it's been, we're coming up on 12 years now at ads in Park Slope. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. I don't know what else was there to that question.
I worked there for four years. That's right. Jess worked there. Yeah. It's a said neighborhood dive, like it's what I wanna do. Yeah. I worked in the, like I said, when I worked for those guys in Charlotte and all the rest, those were like big idiot party bars. The people from the ages of 18 to 21 basically hang out and girls dance in the bar.
Mm-hmm. Back assery, just across the board. And those places are fucking hilarious to work [00:33:00] at. They really are like you. I would never wanna own one. And like the guys I worked for, they were great. They made a ton of money. They were really good at what they did. But it's, I just, I love the industry. But a room full of 200 assholes is not what I want.
Yeah, you wanna be the asshole. Yeah. Yeah, I wanna be the asshole. And yeah, so the cheese is definitely just, I, I, I've worked in both those type of places and the neighborhood bar scene, and I'm much more in neighborhood bar kind of guy. And I just wanted to find a place and open a spot that was just for neighborhood people.
Basically, everybody knows each other and I got very lucky being in this neighborhood, I'll tell you that much. This neighborhood is the best. Like area of bars. Yeah. Bar, community bar. Exactly. The bar community is outrageous. Like Jess and myself are very close friends and we are on a daily text thread.
Oh, actually you're not on that one yet. They, sorry. But they basically, there's 20 different bars and bar owners in this neighborhood that could be looked at. If we were in [00:34:00] a place like Williamsburg saturated with places, everything's competitive, but we're on a text thread with each other saying, Hey, anybody got a good air conditioning guy?
Or. What guys selling Heineken for these days? We wanna, everybody wants to, nobody wants to separate themselves from each other because of the fact that together we feel. Tight and strong and, and very confident in the neighborhood. Yep. So, so what Jess was just saying about before she, Jess worked at Cheese for four years, like Sunday bartender.
What other shifts did you Just Sunday, right? I was just Sundays. Yeah. Yeah. And she like owned Sundays, knew everybody in there and like's how we do things. And Jess was, is one of us, and then she. Was looking for a spot. We all knew that like right on. Okay. And they found, she found one with two other unbelievable people, the right kind of partners to, to get, especially to do it at that time.
But so when they got that, Jess was like, I'm, I got mamas. And I'm like, fuck yeah, right on. Yeah. And it's, it's a 15 minute walk. Sure. But it's [00:35:00] still in the realm of one of us. Like it's in that group and it's like encouragement. I wasn't like, oh, I can't believe you're opening a bar in my neighborhood. We were like, oh shit.
Sweet. We all wear each other's. T-shirts. Yeah. Of the bar of other bars. I love when a bartender comes in in the cheese and working his shift and he's got a mama tried shirt on, or a Freddy's or a buttermilk shirt on. That is fucking awesome and we all agree with it. Yeah, that's a super, super cool aspect of this neighborhood in general.
Why did you want to ha start your own bar? I don't know. I don't even know, per se, that I Has it really thought about it. You did? Yeah. I guess it's somewhat, see, I've always known, I'm like in the, I'm a pro bar business guy in the sense I, I've been bartending all my life. I can, I do. I love bartending.
That's what I pretty much am, and it always afford me the ability to say yes to whatever I wanted to. The schedule, I think is. The best part of the industry. Oh, [00:36:00] absolutely. I would imagine you're, you agree with me? That's really the selling point of it, because you can just, if you bartend, when you're not bartending there, your head's not there.
You're not like, you just, you gotta do whatever the hell you want. You're a bartender. I'm gonna go to a movie at 11:00 AM on a Wednesday. I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna go skiing Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday this week. I'm gonna go do all the stuff. That's awesome. With nobody else doing it. Like it's fantastic.
It's, we can everything else, everything's open on Monday mornings. Yeah, but everybody else, just, everybody's at work. But going camping in the summer and Absolutely. The weekends are already booked up. We can go on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. You can go away for a month. Just this one time in 2010, I was working a place that I worked Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
Good shift. Big places did welding and I freaking, my buddies were like, Hey, let's go to Europe this summer, and I was like, yeah, great. Let's do it. Then. It was like 31 days of Germany, France, Switzerland, Italy, Sarnia, back the other way. [00:37:00] All in a camper van. Just doing it for a little over a month, about 31 days or so.
All I had to do that now. Great. You're not making money while you do that, but that's why it's That's the one downside. Exactly. Exactly. We could save. You have to pay for your time. Yeah. Like you, but it's unlimited really. It's not like we have two weeks vacation every year. It's, we can go away for a month.
We can go away for two months if we wanted to. I left for three. Yeah, exactly. I was gone for 99 days. And so you think about it this way, if you work Thursday, Friday, Saturday, every week, one month, it's 12 shifts. Like it's 12 good shifts that you're gonna say, Hey, can somebody cover me? Yeah, absolutely.
Like, all right, go enjoy Europe. Yeah. So you do, and then you come back and still have my job? Yeah. No, I left one job to move to Africa for two months. It wound up being 13 months. I came back and I had my job back. So being a pro in this industry is something that like, you know. That you know how to work it, what it is, and you know how to take advantage of it.
It's because you're a pro. You're not [00:38:00] a writer or a dancer or somebody or an actor or somebody else using it, which is great. There's tons of people you need that in the service industry. You need, who's that? That is their second job. But at the same time, you need people who, that's their first job and not out of some.
Sort of desperation, but like that they really do understand the service industry. They know how to succeed in it, and that is one of the most frustrating things having to listen to of being service industry, basically. Your whole life, yeah. Is no, but what do you really do because of that? Oh, are you an actor on the side?
Are you a musician? I got that recently and I said. No, I'm one of the owners here and the woman still was like, no, but what do you really do? This is it. I own this bar. Exactly. The place is, could you do this? I don't it so late. I explain this to you. What do you think I should be doing with my life instead?
But then people who ask that are the people who could, there's no. Fucking chance they could do what we did. Yeah. You know, that's like there's spaces for everybody, lady. Yeah. You gotta stop judging, like that's so idiotic of you. Well, yeah. And how much shit I've seen, how much [00:39:00] of this world I know and how much better I think I am because you just fucking asked me that stupid ass question and assumed I'm something else.
Fuck you lit. Yeah. Or how cool it is that you own a business. Yeah, exactly right. Brick and mortar and everything. No, it, but what led, was it just natural to, to say the next step is to own a bar? To me it would. It, I would say yes. I feel like when you, if you know that's your career, and again, you're not an actor or something, it's the next logical step.
Yeah. Okay. Sooner because you do get to a point where you don't necessarily want bosses, but also then. We can't be on our feet 12 hours a day in our seventies. Yeah, absolutely. So it has allowed both of us to bartend less, but we're still around and we're still part of the community. Yeah. We're just not the ones who are standing there for the full 12 hours.
Exactly. Every single day. Yeah. You still do. I still off. I still do. Not as much as I used to. No, absolutely. And you know, and that's the thing in, you're gonna have relationships in the industry, so you're gonna meet the right people. Like I [00:40:00] think the trifecta that is these guys over at Mama. Like they nailed it.
And that's over the course of time you're gonna find, you're gonna find, especially in your forties, that's when bartenders, it's not like a shit or get off the pop thing. It's like you're basically confident enough, enough people, you're like, why don't we put our money together as three people? And that's very common number for people don't bar with.
And as long as you get the right people like they did. Yeah. But it's, I forgot my point again. It was something it Well, it's just the next logical step. Oh yeah. There you go. Yeah. You good people already. You're not going around like putting it on. Indeed. Looking for a bartender. I, you spend enough time really finding yourself within the industry and saying, what do I want?
Yeah. Not let's just get the first opportunity, but you just kinda be like, okay. Meet the right people have the same vision. That's what's great about this neighborhood. Like I said, it's not like we all think the same way and have the exact same vision for a bar. No, don't. But we all have the, have a definite understanding of how to create a neighborhood, how to [00:41:00] allow all this stuff without competition and more encouragement and like how to do that I think is pretty incredible.
And that's, I would guess too, that now you can take everything. Yeah. Everything that maybe you watched throughout the years of people making bad decisions? Oh yeah. Like what the right decision would be. Absolutely. Course exactly what you would wanna do. Oh, and, and like in any job, every bartender, when we were bartenders too, and we still are, but we would be like, oh yeah, this is my bar.
I do, yeah, I would do this. I would do that. Yeah. And here's the thing, and now we're people who have bartenders that say the shit about us own. Yeah, of course. And that's, and it's something we already know. Yeah. And we try to alleviate, not alleviate. Everybody in this, in the industry we are, which is that neighborhood sort of place, knows that employees are not employees.
Bartenders are, we are very good friends or at least know very well the people that work for us. Yeah. And that's really cool. It's a fine line because. Sometimes you are friends with them, [00:42:00] but you are the boss. But at the same time, you know what they do and they know what you do. It's like there's no real hiding.
We're all doing this. And what Jess and I have done is exactly what many people do. Our age going forward is like, we do get together, buy a place, you get a place to see if you can do it yourself. Yeah. And then understand that people are gonna bad mouth you behind your back. Yeah.
Two part question really. Would you want to open a second bar one? Mm-hmm. And what would you do differently for when you start, if let's say you are going to start open a new place, what would you do differently than what you did before? I definitely didn't wanna answer this. Yeah. We are always looking for a second place.
Oh, now? Like right now? Yeah. It's, and it is a little bit where we lucked into us. Not a sweetheart deal, but like a really good deal for a place that we wanted that was in a location that we wanted. That was [00:43:00] affordable for us. Colin technically is the one who bought the bar and then Will and I did sweat equity until we had paid off our portion of it and and sweat equity is when you work for free up until a certain dollar amount.
Good. I was about to say, you were ahead of me there. Yeah. So yeah, Colin and I were discussing buying a bar. And he had some money that he could put forward. And then, yeah, I was gonna work. And then we brought Will in as well. Same thing. Will was gonna work for the Hours. Will's also a career bartender also in Park Slope.
And yeah, so we did end up in a spot that was just so perfect for us that now all these other places that we're going to look at, it's like, but it's so far from where all three of us live. 'cause we all live within a 10 block radius of each other, which is also in 10 block radius of the bar. And yes ma'am.
Trying to get to Bushwick where places are affordable is an hour to get there. So it's like pain in the ass. Exactly. You get a really good deal that makes you [00:44:00] say, oh, we did this really well. We could probably do this again. And then go into logistics and be like, yeah, but that place sucks compared to this place.
Yeah. It's like you, when you have a really good one the first time around, it is tough. It's tough to go to. Yeah. Yeah. And then the places that like. We've looked at that would be better location wise and like I would love to do one in Crown Heights because I worked in Prospect Heights, crown Heights for 10 years.
Oh yeah. That was my first neighborhood bar experience. Yeah. No, like that's it. And I absolutely loved it and I miss being over there just 'cause I miss my friends that were over there. Yeah. And I'll come down to Mamas, but it's enough of a distance that it's not a regular thing. Yep. But the places we've looked at over there, it's, Ooh, this seems like a great deal.
And then we find out people who worked in the previous space and like, yeah, the neighbors are a nightmare. Like they will call the cops immediately. Ah, if your backyard is not closed at 10:00 PM they will call the cops. We have dealt with one of our neighbors calling the cops, and we have live music even though we're within the hours and can't even get into his apartment to do a decibel reading because he won't allow us to, [00:45:00] because then if it's not illegal decibels, then he doesn't have a leg to stand on and you can just call 3 1 1 and have the cops show up anytime you want.
And we have worked everything out sound wise, so that's not an issue anymore. We got enough sound diffusion. But yeah, it's like having already dealt with a nightmare neighbor when we were under a highway and expected that never to be a thing. Yeah, you didn't think that would be. Yeah. Moving into a neighborhood where the apartments are on top of the bar.
Also, we don't have any apartments on top of us. We are a one floor bar. Yeah, one floor building. Yeah. You're location's fantastic. Yeah, so it's just like so many things where it all worked out so perfectly. But yeah. Trying to figure out what we wanna do for another one. Yeah. Yep. So it's frustrating. Yeah.
To extend what you have there or you do a different type of place. Yeah. And for me, for the cheese, would I make cheese too or would I make a completely different place? Yeah. And then you get into the thing about spreading yourself thin. Yeah. So when you do cheese, said, okay, crown Heights, prospect Heights would be perfect.
'cause it would be, it's a close enough neighborhood, she knows it. That [00:46:00] would be the place to go. Yeah. Then that's gonna add, you're probably gonna be. The one who takes care of the job you have now at Yeah, there. And so now you gotta do it for two places and then you have to, then you have to staff that over there.
So who's gonna manage it? Like the day to day, is it gonna be me or is it gonna be pretty much the obvious person that does a lot at my existing place? Do we move them over there and then you're missing that person there? Yeah. So it's like these logistical sort of management Yeah. Like requirements. That also put a big quick breaks on your, your, let's go to two, let's expand, let's expand.
Mm-hmm. So what would you do differently if it, if I think for, at least for us, I probably would not wanna do live music at another spot just 'cause, and my business partner is the one who does all the live music booking. He sets up the pa, he runs the sound, but. I don't think he could do that at two places.
'cause it's such an intense full-time job. Yeah, yeah. That is on top of day to day. It's impressive operational. It's a pain in the ass thing to do. [00:47:00] Yeah. That's what she's describing. No. In the sense, no, you just need to hire an event manager. Exactly. Then now you're looking at bigger payroll now. Exactly. At that point then we're not gonna make any money at whatever new bar is.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And music and noise is such a big deal in especially Crown Heights as Crown Heights is gentrified. Nightlife is not gone. It's definitely still there, but it's not the, like, you can be as loud and have as much of a party as you used to be able to When I lived over there. Yeah, we worked over there.
Yeah. Yeah. So I would probably try to avoid the music thing. Yeah, that's, that would be my biggest change to me. Yeah. What about you, Brad? What would I do? Like what would you do dif if you open another bar like I definitely, or what do you, would you have knickknacks every day? Not different, or what would I do differently?
In a sense that I would not definitely, I would not do another cheese too. Yeah. Not because cheese doesn't work. I look, it's ridiculous, but. There's only so much I would not wanna expand that it then, 'cause it's actually, it's a neighborhood [00:48:00] bar named ridiculously like a chain restaurant like it's supposed to be making fun of all this polished bullshit that it's the cheesiest crap that we're all guilty of.
When it's that needs, that just needs to be hammered into one spot that does not have to be. Like spread out because then you become what you're basically making fun of and so you become the McDonald's of bars. Yeah, and in a sense like crack girl. Yeah. In the sense of because I'm an artist and like I've done a bunch of stuff, I would do a different concept, but I definitely think.
It would be some sort of concept. Yeah. Or depending on the space. Adapt to the space. Adapt to whatever something came up. I'm not currently looking for another spot, but if something just weirdly came up and, and 'cause on my place alone, but there's always opportunities with other people. Hey, do you wanna get in on this?
Or whatever. But if I was gonna do one alone on my own, I wouldn't Right now. I do what I'm doing, like I do not make a lot of money, but I do enjoy what I'm doing right now and I'm expanding [00:49:00] within that sort of concept and brand and doing t-shirts and stuff like that where, and the, the pizza and our knots and whatnot.
It's, I wanted, I. I like concentrating on cheese. I like being part of it and, and I, and having a great relationship with your landlords makes a huge difference too. Oh. Because you don't have the fear that like Yeah. That at the end of your lease, your landlord's gonna triple your rent type of thing. Yeah.
Oh yeah. Absolutely. I have no fear of that. I have a new 10 year lease. Eight. I got eight more years on it now. Yeah. But as far as they're concerned, the, when our tenure lease was up. Wanna just keep going? Same thing. I was like, yeah, absolutely. Another 10. They're like, yeah, let's go. It was like nothing to them.
Yeah, because they listen. They're not stupid, they're delightful and they love people. They really care about me and. The cheeses existence. Yeah. That's why they Alps through COVID. You know, they, I'm very, very close with them because we both understand each other in that 10 years down the road, I could probably ease if they still own the place, all the rest.
Yeah. It would just be like another 10. So I have a very good relationship. And that's another [00:50:00] thing going into a second place. Say you hit all your boxes, you just, like anything in real estate, you look for apartment or a bar, whatever it might be. You have your. Box that you gotta check, oh, I want a balcony, I want outdoor space, or whatever the fuck.
And then they say, you hit three of those, make an offer. You know what I mean? So you could find a place like that and be like, oh, this is great. And then you meet the landlord and they're just piece of shit. Yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, I'm out. That box was not checked. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Same thing like, oh, crappy neighbor.
If a bar is closing and you're buying a bar, better ask about the neighbors. They better be honest. Yeah. And with the landlords. Yeah. Like a friend of mine's bar in beds is closed. Six months ago, because it was basically the breakeven bar that they had of their few bars and then the rent doubled. It was a breakeven passion project bar.
You double the rent on me. I can't afford to keep this place open anymore. Yeah. So they had to shut down. And then another friend's bar going through the same thing right now that's is significant of enough and the bar just floats by, makes a little bit of money, but not anything to write home about. And now the rent's [00:51:00] gonna go up four grand.
So that makes it a negative. Exactly. Instead of actually a breakeven project makes massive, yeah. It, it fiscally just an untenable situation. Yeah. That you gotta get out of. Yeah. Yeah. So if someone wanted to start their own business, what advice would you give them? Like the first thing that comes to mind?
Hmm. Brick and mortar. Yeah, of course. The only business you talking about, like starting any business or starting in the bar business, doing what we do. I would say any business, but because I don't know any other business, it's just someone wanted to open a bar. Yeah. And I'm assessing the situation, current sort of prices and current level of what today things are.
What would you. Go in knowing it's gonna be more work than you think it's gonna be. Yeah. And that, yeah, that definitely applies to absolutely every single industry out, I assume, too. Yeah. And so many people think it's like, oh no, I'm just gonna start a business. It's gonna be fine. It'll be fine. It'll look great.
It's a lot of work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you better be confident. We know. You do. Yeah. Like in the [00:52:00] sense, yeah. You hear a lot of people there that made a bunch of money on Wall Street or whatever, retired cop or something like that. Mm-hmm. It's now just by a bar. Yeah. And that rarely works out. Yeah. Yeah.
'cause they, you can, what smarter, what a lot of people do is just invest in somebody else. Yeah. And bring in someone who knows what they're doing. Invest. Exactly. Go find the right person and do it. Yeah. Like that. Right. And we are those we're those people in the sense that, getting back to, 'cause I own the place alone that.
Once you live alone, going back to having roommates. So I would, it would be difficult for me to just invest in somebody else's thing because I am the boots on the ground kind of, and not being, I would wanna do it myself. Exactly. I would wanna be in charge. Yeah. I wouldn't wanna do it. And so it's interesting.
Like I, I, maybe someday Sure, but like at the moment right now, I wouldn't want to. And for somebody who does, yeah. It's just expect what it is, what you think it is. What you know it is. Yeah. But just. Notch it up a bit and put more anxiety on yourself, put more [00:53:00] on you to do this and understand it's going to be on you.
Yeah. So if you are and do wanna do that, don't just think about, oh, I can do that. Be like, okay, can I do that? Yes. And then go for it. Yeah, totally. Same.
