Real Stories - Kennan & Karen (Part 2) - Career Changes, Starting a Business, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), and Finding Micro Joys

September 03, 2025

In part two of Real Stories with Kennan and Karen, we chat about their career paths and shifts, their journey through and following Kennan's traumatic brain injury, the why behind starting their business, and so much more!

I hope you enjoy this part as much as I did!

Listen to Part One

Connect with me: @therealmeredithb

Connect with Kennan and Karen:

Empathway Designs

Podcast

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to part two of my conversation with Kennan and Karen. In this part, we dive into their career paths and what led them to where they are today, which is their own business, and we dive into what that is as well. We also talk about Kennan's traumatic brain injury story and how they dealt with that together and how he is doing today and what all of that entails.

So of course, I enjoyed this conversation so much and I hope you do as well. And every now and then you will hear some noises in the background, and that is their amazing dog's collar as he's moving around. And there are a couple times where we had to cut the audio short because it either went out. Or because [00:01:00] their dog started barking because I believe the garbage truck was happening.

So hopefully that isn't too obvious, but there are a couple of places where we had to just cut it short and start, uh, again. So anyway, I hope you enjoy this, and thank you so much for being here. Bye-bye.

Welcome to the average nineties Gal podcast. Join me as I share my own journeys through life, how I got and continue to get through them, as well as real stories from real people in this crazy world. Let's get through it together.

So, uh, you did mention leaving college and then coming here and everything, and. You left engineering. Mm-hmm. And I know you became a teacher. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When was that? [00:02:00] I think it was 20 13, 20 12, 20 13. Somewhere around because 20. Yeah. I think I made the decision in 2012 and started figuring out how to do it in 2013 and was in a classroom for that 20 13, 20 14 school year.

Like it was that fast. Mm-hmm. It was crazy. And what did you teach? Engineering and computer science, which was nice. 'cause I have professional background in it, so you know, I was able to find a spot. I remember the interview with the principal, uh, I walked to school with him, showed me what they were doing.

It was very rudimentary, you know, shout outs to the teachers that were making it happen, but real rudimentary engineering, some popsicle stick bridges, stuff like that. And I was like, okay, that's cool. No cement like canoe, you know? I'm like, all right, I'm an engineer. I'm like, come on. I wanna see something better than that.

What's that? Uh, but you know, I was humbled 'cause they were doing it with young people and I just remember at the end he was like, so I want to build out what they're doing in an after school or, you know, academic sense into a full on elective that every kid gets. And I was like, dope. He was [00:03:00] like, are you interested?

And I was like, yeah, that sounds really cool. And he was like, okay. And I was like, wait, that's it. He was like, you're a black man. I was like, yep. He was like, and you wanna do this? I was like, yep. He was like, okay. And I was like, that's the first time that those two pieces of me have ever equaled a job.

Like, ever. Like, wait, what? Okay. You're like, really? That's it? That's all I needed to do. Okay, shoot. All right. But then within like, I want to say within a month and a half of being in the classroom, I realized that I was gonna be the, like the, um, the example. That whenever the, the superintendent wanted to visit us a classroom, they were gonna bring 'em into mine.

'cause I had this engineering classroom with these robots and like kids were doing all this cool stuff. And so then I realized, oh my God, I gotta be on, like, I'm already on stage for these kids eight hours a day. And every now and again, this whole crew with like, media's gonna roll in here. Oh my God, this [00:04:00] is, yeah.

Hell on earth. But yeah, it is fun. And which, which grades were they? So I initially taught seven and eight, and then the second, like the following years, I taught six, seven, and eight. Okay, cool. So yeah, there were kids I had for three straight years that by the time they got to eighth grade I was like, yo.

You better know what's happening. I want you to hit this classroom like running, like don't be coming in here. I used to say, don't, don't start your engine as you walk in the door. Start your engine in the hallway. I need you ready to go when you get in here. Like, there ain't no no, no, no. I love that.

Especially for eighth graders. They need to hear that, had that thing out there charged up and ready because we, we hitting the ground running when you get in here, we ain't got no time for this. Yeah. Nice. And Karen, what about you? Uh, so you were in, did art, how did, and then your career, what did you end up?

Um, I, I'll say like, I was not very like career ambitious, I think in general, not very career ambitious. Um, so I never [00:05:00] was like one of those people that had like a plan, right? Like, this is where I wanna be and these are the steps that I like, you know, need to take in terms of like professionalism. Uh, I, you know, moved out here to be an artist and I was making, I lived in a live work loft with five other people.

And so the idea was that I, you know, it was kind of raw enough and I had the space where I could like build these fairly large sculptures that I was making at the time. And I was doing that. And then there was the whole rent thing. And they were really cool by the way. Um, they were really cool sculptures.

And so I got a job, you know, so I could pay the rent. Uh, and I was, initially it was screen printing and that was still kind of like, you know, in the realm of I'm still an artist, I just gotta pay my rent. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I was making these like really giant paper sculptures at the time, and then they were taking up too much space.

So then I would grab Kennan and we would go out to like the Alameda Beach, uh, or Ocean Beach and burn them because I needed to make more space. Um, and then I, you know, at some point got a different [00:06:00] job and I was working with kids with autism because I'd had some. Experience, uh, in college doing that too.

I mean, I've been working since I was 12 or 13 in some capacity. Always, whether it was like retail or childcare, uh, just like to work, like grew up with a, like, you need to be working. Mm-hmm. You need to be of service, you need to be contributing, you need to be disciplining yourself. Like these are all like very, you know, just embedded kind of values, um, from very early childhood as well as making and like creating.

And so, and, and really I think making the world like better in some way, like being, being an active contributor. Um, so then I, you know, started working at a non-public school for kids with autism in the Richmond area and really loving it. Like really, really loving it. And was still making art. And then just like realized, you know, if, if I'm like burning all of this work, like I don't care for anybody to see it.

And like the artist's role in society is [00:07:00] to create things that people view. Mm-hmm. And that viewing engages people and widen aperture or, you know, provoke some kind of thought or action. Um, and is. You know, I think also often like a cultural commentary or some visibility on society and I just, if I didn't care about having an audience, like this was not what I should be spending my eight hours a day doing.

Uh, and that was a real, like, turning point for me. So like, yes, it was coupled with like, how do I make this affordable? You know, how do I live the life I need to live and make money off of art? But I also had like zero desire to make money off of my art too. Mm-hmm. So, uh, I had a family friend who was a play therapist and while I was working at the school with young people with autism, you know, which I found like wildly creative and most of them were nonverbal.

And same with the person that I worked with in college. Um. You know, there were just like a lot of constraints and there was a lot of like, really, really engaging my empathy, which is a really strong [00:08:00] part of me. And, uh, really trying to like, see the world as these young people did and, uh, you know, kind of enhance the joy and try to minimize all the parts that made life really, really hard for them.

And then also, like, how do I, you know, parts of their environment are the other people in it. Mm-hmm. Like how do I. Uh, help the other people that are, you know, involved in their education or care too. And so I think that same creativity and problem solving that I loved in art was activated there. But it wasn't just personal discovery.

Like my art was very much both my meditative practice and my own discovery and my own storytelling and, you know, my own therapy. And this was really in service of someone else, but tapping into much of the same process. So I had a family friend who is a play therapist, and she was like, you know, this is exciting that you're working at this school, and like, where do you think you're gonna take this as a education or therapy?

And I was like, education. 'cause I was outta school and she was like, so you know, over time you're gonna become a school [00:09:00] administrator and like be far away from the kids. And I was like, therapy? You're like, no, yeah, not that. And, um, and I, uh. You know, I had worked with an occupational therapist when I worked with a young person with autism in college, as well as the OTs that worked with the students that I was working with at the time.

And the OTs were the most fun. Like they were the ones that I think a engaged me in the therapy too, and, uh, gave me space. Like I felt really like seen and engaged by them, and they had hella cool toys and it was a lot of like, you know. Uh, things weren't exactly what they appeared. And what I mean by that is like, there was an activity and that's what you would think we were doing, we're playing this game.

But beneath the surface there was like all this science of like, why that activity and how that activity was encouraging, you know, the student to build skills or move through something that was, you know, otherwise challenging for them. And I really, I love that idea of like learning through [00:10:00] doing and it just seemed, um, yeah, just, I don't know, it just like really made sense to me.

And so I ended up going to school for occupational therapy. Not realizing that it was really, um, you know, within the medical profession, because I, I made decisions kind of hastily at the time. And so I was like, I'm in Oakland, what schools are near here? Oh, there's a, there's an OT school in Oakland. I'll go there.

You know, I, it's not that far from my house. And then getting there, and they were like, you need kinesiology and you need like, human development and all these prerequisites. And I was like, you know, and bio and this. And, and I didn't have 'em. And at the time I didn't know that there was an out the chair that was bringing me in was leaving.

Mm-hmm. And so he waved a lot of my prerequisites. Nice. And, um, and in my like interviews for the school, you know, I, it just felt exciting. Like I felt, um, like I was in the right place. And then I started school almost like, oh my God, this is all [00:11:00] science. Because the first year for me, at least of OT school started with.

Dead body in a bag and like 20, I think the first year, like 24 or 36 credits of anatomy. Uh, which was like full cadaver dissection, which was like one of the very most privileged experiences of my life. Um, and because it's such an incredible way to learn and I had just come from, you know, a very hands-on sculpture space.

And so, I don't know, this might be off putting for people, but like to be able to use my hands to like learn about this body and to use tools too. And like, there was fine and there was heavy, uh, and I could draw all of these, you know, I could draw what I was learning to understand it better. Really, really appealed to me.

But it was like a very, very steep hill because it was, um, a language I didn't speak that most of my classmates spoke a little bit coming into this program. So that was when I was like, oh, I gotta like leave this loft and this life and I gotta like go move to [00:12:00] Cerrito. And that's when Kenon adopted my best friend and I just adopted my desk in my books.

Um, gotta be quiet in El Sto. Yeah, so I, that's how I got into occupational therapy. And then I was hell bent that I was, you know, gonna work with kids with autism. I was just going to school to get better at what I already loved and was good at. And I had like an, uh, just a really wonderful mentor now, dear friend, who just really encouraged me at the right moments to like, stop limiting myself.

I think that's a bit of a pattern. Agreed. Um, agreed. And, uh, you know, I think I was trying really hard to get out of like my physical disabilities internship because it's not what I wanted to do. And he was like, but like, you know, wherever you go, like even if you're outta school, you're gonna be the most qualified medical professional.

So like when a kid has a seizure and hits their head. And I was who they coming to? Dang. All right. So, you know, so I did like an internship at San Francisco General Hospital [00:13:00] as a result for three months, which was like, fantastic. You know, I'm so glad I didn't miss, like, didn't keep, didn't not tap into that opportunity for myself.

Um, and so I did a, a third optional internship coming outta school that was at a lock treatments facility for adults who had had severe head injuries and co-occurring behavioral challenges and mental health disorders, uh, that pretty much like, you know, couldn't live anywhere else. They'd been kicked out of everywhere else, not because they were terrible people, but because the system did not support them, uh, or know how to provide them with a type of care and environment that they could thrive in.

Uh, and it sucks to have your freedom taken away. So that is like a very highly constrained environment too. And it was, you know, there was a lot of aggression and so it was like a high stress environment and, uh, I had the opportunity to, to, um. Support my mentor and professor at the time in some research there, and I just loved it.

And so about a year and a half later, I [00:14:00] was invited to come back as, uh, onto the team. And then I really was there with a few little breaks for about 15 years, um, and progressed to being the director of the rehab program too. Um, I learned so much there. Like I learned so much there about people in general.

Mm-hmm. But about, you know, program administration and program management and healthcare administration, but also like, most importantly, kind of like what we, you know, head injury will show you if you kind of strip away all the complications and the, like, complexity that we add onto things like severe head injury, show you what really matters to people and like what, what really scares people, and I think that's true for most of us, is that like, we all wanna be loved, we all wanna matter and we don't really wanna die alone.

You know, like we're scared of being alone and, um, so. Yeah, it was, you know, again, a place where I could be like really creative and really of service and, uh, see the direct impact of my work [00:15:00] too on, you know, people's lives improving in the ways that I think are just like you're deserving of, which is dignity and however you define quality of life and, uh, you know, meaningful participation and belonging in something.

Right? Mattering and belonging in something that matters to you and some, some purpose. And, uh, and at some point I just, you know, you like start to feel like you need to grow a little bit and canon that job. Both, you know, I, I grew a ton there, but I also, like, I bought my first car when I was working there all the way to, like, I had, was pregnant with both of my kids there, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And got married and bought a hot, like all those things happened while I was there. Mm-hmm. At different times, like major life milestones. And Kennan at one point was trying to start a school and so he was involved in a lot of different, like, fellowship programs and, you know, kind of incubator programs and school development [00:16:00] programs.

And so he was doing like a ton of both personal and professional growth and development. Mm-hmm. Uh, and um, also needed a lot of. You know, time to travel for that. And so my job also helped us in terms of like stability and income and I could always figure out something else to learn. You know, there was always room to learn more and became more interested in like our staff's wellbeing and how to like, you know, this ecosystem here of when the staff are doing better because they deserve to be too, oh, our patients also hit people less, you know, 'cause they're not being micro aggress towards.

So, um, anyways, but at some point I just felt like I, I needed my chance and my opportunity to try something else and to really understand like, are these skills that I've developed here transferable somewhere else? Or am I really only good at this? 'cause it's so familiar. And, and I'll just say at the same time I was kind of pulling at Karen to be like, yes, your skills are completely.[00:17:00]

Um, transferable, like, and they're so needed in the space that I'm in where teachers are burned out and not really supported, um, emotionally and just really just forced to grind it out for 180 days in order to earn your summer break, right? Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, I was trying to build something different in terms of a school that looked at, you know, wellbeing and, and holistic supports of students and was really learning a ton from what Karen was doing.

And one of my favorite stories that I, I think in my mind that really exemplifies the work you were doing was there was a need of staff to have tea. They really liked it. It was good for them. They maybe were calmer, maybe they just felt more at ease at home. Maybe they just needed the warm beverage. I don't know this 'cause I never got to have like real information about a lock facility.

That's how legal, yeah. Yeah. But they needed the tea. And [00:18:00] Karen started providing the tea. And then as humans would do, somebody was stealing the tea. And so instead of stopping the tea, because somebody was clearly stealing the tea, Karen was like, well, people need the tea and clearly someone needs to steal the tea, so just have more tea.

And I was like, ah, see, this is the type of message that people need to hear. Like, don't penalize everybody. And in fact, you're really just helping someone with a need. So if your goal was to help them with a need, just keep helping. Like, don't, don't shut it down. 'cause you feel like someone's not really showing up in the way you need them to show up.

No. You filled their need. Keep providing. Yeah. And you don't know why they're stealing the tea. No, no. Or, and I frankly don't need to know, need to know some of my stuff crazy. They're like, of course I can't believe you're still filling the tea. And then they stole the tea box. You know, now you're replacing the box.

You stole everything. It's like, whatever. So it's tea, right? Like, there's so many names for the type of [00:19:00] work we did there. Now, you know, and like, and I, and I, I just think at the end of the day, like it's. It's healing centered work. It's work where you're really thinking about people and context and you're really checking your assumptions and testing them and um, really weighing like priorities.

Right? And so it's, there was a high level of accountability that we demanded in many spaces there, but it wasn't around the tee. Yeah. And in large part because, you know, a lot of our staff worked a couple of jobs and English wasn't their native language, you know? And so this wasn't like their native home either.

And so there was family all over the place too. And they had dependent care and childcare. And so like if you're two 15 minute breaks in the break room, like if we can make those better, if you can depend on their being the tea you're looking for. Yeah. Let's make that better. Um. But I think we've, Ken and I have had fun taking all of these combined experiences and like transferring them to [00:20:00] different spaces and different industries now, and all the way to, you know, running our, our own business and our own consultancy and trying to figure out what that is.

'cause yes, there's a lot of technical skill, right? Like you can build things and you can design things and you understand aggregate and how it works, right? And like, I, I understand how to pass a Medicare audit, right? Like there's like things we, we know to do that are very, did you just say aggregate his, his face?

Just his face just lit up. Lit up rebar. Oh my goodness. Too much. Too much. I can't take it, but I, you know, if like you just make it kind of less, I don't know, less complicated. It's like we just really enjoy creating conditions where people can like disarm a little bit so that they can engage in the way they deserve to and whatever it is that they find meaningful.

Yeah. Yeah. And [00:21:00] throw a little laughter in there. Yeah. Make a song. Always. Always. And, and I wanna get into your business in a little bit, but I do wanna sidetrack for a second because you brought up head injuries and I was thinking how that also helped you, right? Yeah. Because I would love if you're okay with it, Ken, and telling your story and what it was like for the two of you.

Yeah. It's a two part story 'cause I only remember so much. But, um, I'll go to what you said is that, uh. Head injuries really strip you down to your bare essentials, like what it is that you're really looking for, afraid of. Um, all of the filtering, all of the added walls, and just complications that as humans, we layers, we just keep adding.

They just get stripped away. So I went out for a skate on a Sunday. I'm pretty sure it was a Sunday. No roller blades. Yeah, [00:22:00] rollerblading. Just so people know, 2017. So yeah, some people, some people skate on skateboards, some people skate on roller skates. I skate on roller blades in line. Just making sure people know that.

Yep, yep. Hold it down. Yep. I'm still, I'm straight Gen X, like I'm that, I'm that Gen X. Um, I still rollerblade. Uh, so yeah, I went out for a skate with the homies. Normal procedure for us. Uh, we met up at Berkeley Skate Park, which we had been going to for a few weeks At that point. It was like a routine, cool session.

Nothing too crazy. And I left there in an, in an ambulance. Um, I went to skate a ledge that I normally skate and because there were a lot of skateboarders there, and if you're not in the community, you don't understand the beef that exists around waxing objects. I skate with plastic parts, not metal, so it slides very different for me than it would for trucks on a skateboard, but not that different than the deck, which is wood.

But if you're on a skateboard and you hit something that's [00:23:00] really heavily waxed, you will slip out and it's very scary. Whereas for me, if I hit something that is not well waxed, well what happens to me is I stick and I don't slide. And so I was already cognizant of the fact that there were a bunch of skateboarders there.

I was probably a little overly cautious, so I just waxed my skates, which is something I had a practice of doing. So I was fairly comfortable with it, but then I went to scan an obstacle, didn't have enough wax. I stuck, it threw me about, I wanna say like four or so feet forward, and then about three or four feet down, right to the back of my head.

Um, my injury, as I was told, was not so much from the impact of hitting the concrete, which, you know, definitely I had a little, little abrasion from, but actually the rebounding of my brain inside my skull. Mm. So really what happened was the damage beyond just, you know, some loss of some gray matter, which is always exciting to hear, um, was a full, like I say, scrambling of my frontal lobe.

[00:24:00] Um, and so I'm a New Yorker. I don't do flight. I, I don't do freeze. I generally just do fight. Fight. Yeah. And you had roller blades on. And so I got up and was like, yo, I'm good. I'm great. And my friends were like, no, you're not. And so I punched a friend. Uh, I remember that. And then I remember, I remember that the firemen came and I was like, okay, this is serious.

There's some fire people here. Now I gotta punch them too. I, I'm not, I'm not gonna punch them because that's, that's generally illegal. Punching your friend is fine. They'll forgive you later. They'll forgive you later. But, but not, I don't punch people in uniform. In uniform, uniform. Yeah. No, you don't. Do I remember this part of the story being that you went in easy.

No, I don't think I went in easy. I just didn't punch anyone again, I didn't say any of that. And you had the keys to the car. Still had keys to, they were, did some wrangling of the keys from you Had me get outta skates somehow. Yeah. 'cause I really didn't even want to get off. Like I was in my skates. I was like, I'm good.

Um, but yeah, that [00:25:00] started what was, I mean, always will be a recovery from a traumatic brain injury. Like, I'm not, I'm not one of those people that's like, oh yeah, you're gonna six months, and then you're like, you're great. That might be some people's story. I highly doubt it. Um, I will forever be living with the side effects or changes or the revelations that I got in those moments right after A TBI like.

Um, but yeah, it was not easy. Um, the timing was terrible. We hadn't, I had lost my license. Karen didn't have a license. We had what, a 5-year-old and like a 2-year-old or like a seven and 2-year-old, something like that. Two and nine? Yeah, something like, so like, no. Yeah. Two and seven. Yeah. So like, the timing was terrible.

Um, it was just about Christmas break. We relied on lot of family. We relied on a lot of family and friends, um, and neighbors to help get us through that time. Aftercare during like all like for kids. And I was really home. [00:26:00] For what, like a, a month or so after the injury? Like just on, not house arrest, but pretty much, uh, I had a lot of challenges with light, uh, bright lights would send me into a tizzy.

Light sound. Yeah. Heavy or screechy. Sounds like sudden sounds. Mm-hmm. Would gimme headaches. I had movement headaches. I started getting like weird quad cramping that would happen. Like there was all kinds of, just like oddities. I had to, like, I'm, I'm not the type of person who does really well with being injured.

We'll just say that. And so I wanna challenge that a little bit. Like, no, you're not. No. So like, like earlier I was like, I can, I can put shoes on, but I had no balance. I couldn't walk. Really. Like, was tying, was tying something difficult? I don't know. Didn't, were trying it. Yeah. Yeah. If I may, at that point in time you didn't like insight was impaired, like it was part of your frontal injury [00:27:00] was that you didn't have insight.

Yeah. So you didn't, for about two weeks really understand your injury, so you focused a lot on your hamstrings, which were very uncomfortable for you, but that was the injury. Everything else was kind of fine. Whereas, you know, you had this jelly bob in your skull that was like really delicate and swallowing and your deci Yeah.

And your decision making was off, and your memory was off and you were more reactive and all that. But the insight was like at that point you, you actually didn't really quite understand your injury. And so it was also hard to protect you from yourself. Um, you. Do get injured a lot though, not nerve logically.

This is logically having a professional in the realm of head injury really came in handy. Yes, definitely. I think what was, where you're like, I'm not so good at being injured, where I wanna like push back a little bit is that this was the same chapter of time that you were trying to build a school and you had a, I mean you had a school program, it had a name, it had a board, uh, and [00:28:00] you were also just about to interview for the position at the district to be the district manager of computer science.

So like professionally timing, you were soaring. And I don't just mean in terms of like accolades and what you were accumulating, but you were in all of these like fellowship and incubator programs that. We're really teaching you to, uh, to challenge yourself and to fail, right? And like to pilot and fail and pilot and fail.

And I think that coupled with your experience as a child actor where like you had this experience of rejection as being part of the process actually rendered you an amazing patient. Once we got out of the, I have no insight phase and, and the like, I wanna beat everything up because stop telling me I can't do X, Y, and Z.

You know? So the, the restriction coupled with a lack of insight, like is a very challenging, uh, you know, combination. So, but once you understood like, oh, I. You know, you didn't [00:29:00] almost die but you mm-hmm. Could have done things mm-hmm. That would've led to death, um, and very easily. Mm-hmm. Like not, you know, not what ifs like Yeah.

Like I remember trying to climb out of the bed. That would've been like the hospital bed. That could have been one of those things. Correct. That didn't go well. You were gonna walk out of the hospital at 3:00 AM and hop, get an Uber from Redwood City and go home. But you'd been in the ICU for a week and you didn't have shoes.

Ah, or a phone, but you were gonna get in that Uber, do it anyway. So close. And I think in a lot of it at that time too was like. Oh. And there's like, you know, a black man out there and he's gonna get shot. Like, that was like a lot of, like, you're, you're not in your decision making filtered. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mindset either. So there was just a lot, or you're gonna try to drive and you can barely see right now. Or if you, you are in fight mode and you're have no shoes on and you're walking the street, someone would say something. Correct, correct. Is my guess. And it was a long way home from Redwood City, you know, so it wasn't just a little hop skip from Holland at that point.

Um, so I, [00:30:00] you were, you were so primed to take on your recovery once you understood, oh. Everything almost just changed for me and my family. Mm. Everything. Now it is my job to like be the best student. And once you made that switch, and I kind of remember we were sitting outside on the bench and it was one of the days that the speech therapist was coming here and she gave you, you know, little homeworks and like you're, you like the homeworks.

They were mentally stimulating and I think a lot of the drugs you were on and you know, a lot of things were dulling you and not stimulating you, plus you can tolerate a lot of stimulus. So it was just like. You know, it's a tough place to be. Um, but we were sitting out front, she'd given you some homework and so you started to just like be more communicative.

You were sitting in the front of the house and you were describing what you saw and it's just a basic little lawn. Mm-hmm. But you were really talking about like seeing every blade of grass almost like a pixel. Yeah. That was the crazy part, is that everything was a pixel. Even the cars that [00:31:00] drove by were just big square pixels and it started to like illuminate a bit too, like how overwhelming everything would become very quickly 'cause you were processing all of these individual parts and trying to like, make a whole lot of them.

But it also introduced such a mindfulness and presence in you that, I don't wanna say was not existent before, but was not. You couldn't immerse yourself as quickly as you did and as you do now in just like I'm very present in. This thing that I'm present with. Um, and you know, when you were mentioning like revelations that happened for you, it's not just things you lost or that changed, it's also things you gained is, you know, part of not having a filter while could be, um, scary initially coming home with like young kids in the house and what's gonna happen when they're annoying as little kids are and not having a filter and not having restraint.

And that was very real for a little bit, you know, just in terms of like, how do I protect all of us because mm-hmm. There's a legacy of all [00:32:00] of us for years and years to come. Mm-hmm. Let's kind of, you know, it's harm reduction on the potential trauma pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but that lack of filter also, like over time, I mean, you can speak to this better than I can, it's been beautiful to watch you be like, I'm done.

Not being me for other people. Mm-hmm. Like you've been, you have become much more selective. You've always been confident, you've been much more, um, I'm gonna be me in every space. Less masking. Yeah. Yeah, man. You know, to speak to that, I went from an infant to an adult in like a month, you know, like I had a whole restart.

Um, and yeah, I think part of it, I've been like you a professional forever now since I was like eight years old, I've been acting as a professional. When I was a professional actor as a kid, I didn't [00:33:00] show up to the set and stay a kid. I showed up to the set and I put on my professional my best like adultness that I could at that age.

Uh, as a professional dancer, same thing. And so. I think I've had enough time to like craft personas and who you and how you show up into certain places. Um, and yeah, that just gets tiring. Mm-hmm. And there's just, just a lot to hold and it's a lot to distribute. Like, I don't need all that. And so, yeah, it's been really freeing to just bring my whole authentic self into spaces.

And sometimes that is scary for people and sometimes we don't agree. And I have to say things in ways that, you know, challenge because I don't agree and I don't feel like we should be in this place. But, you know, sometimes that's the energy that's necessary in the room. And no, I'm not ashamed. I think that's also something about it is [00:34:00] I, I walk around with less shame for.

Who I am and how I wanna show up. Like if you, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, it's cool. Like, I have a saying now where like, you know, I made it this far, we weren't like best friends. So like, I don't need you to be my best friend now. Like, we can still be cool. Like, it's all right. Like we can have a disagreement and like walk away and be like, I, I don't, I don't agree with you on that.

Okay. It is cool. It's good. It's good with that. Cool. All is not lost. Now one story I remember you telling me that I would love is when you said there was a point where you were playing like nineties hip hop for him. And why was that again? Yeah, it so, 'cause he, so he felt like he was more comfortable or the first couple days home from the hospital were really tough.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna like give a little more context to the story. Sure. But I'll get, I'll get to the hip hop. Um, is uh. You know, the hospital is [00:35:00] very structured and there's, um, it's a very predictable and very annoying when you're trying to recover, schedule people checking in on you and all that. But, but it is a rhythm that you pick up on and it's very low stimulus and, you know, yeah, it's the, the degree of unpredictability is somewhat limited.

Um, and so Ken really needed to leave the hospital like for emotional reasons. And he was there longer than we had anticipated 'cause his brain just kept swelling. And, uh, we needed proximity to high level neurological neurosurgical care. Should he need, uh, a hole to be put in his skull to drain the fluid on his brain, or, you know, to make more space for his brain to swell.

So we were in the hospital for a little longer than expected. There were like lots of racist under and overtones at the hospital that we were at at the time in Redwood City. We had started here in Highland. Um, so we left earlier than expected and on a Sunday, which is like not the [00:36:00] regular hospital staff and procedures too.

So like, it just wasn't ideal. And all that to say is that it's not the day I wished we would've come home. So things weren't as prepared at home as, and we were so fortunate to have our cousins lived here at the time, so they like ran and got blackout curtains and put them on the windows and, you know, they hid alcohol and just, you know, we did a lot of trying to like, minimize potential risks in the house.

Um, and we, I had great advice of like, when it's, you know, time this came from. My mentor and professor who I mentioned earlier of like, let's just try to make things feel as normal as possible when we get home. 'cause the transition's gonna be huge and you want him to feel like he's in his normal routine, but like without the need for all the like stuff that could be dangerous.

And so, you know, Kennan came home and it was Warrior season and I like made sure like some of the guys were here right? And like they could just watch a game, but like nobody was, you know, no substances. Mm-hmm. All that. Everybody sort of had coaching ahead of [00:37:00] time, but otherwise it's gonna feel normal.

And you really walked in this house as if you had just had a long day at work. Like, but you know, we had all been awake for seven days around you at the ICU. Thought I lost my husband. Kids haven't seen either parents in a week like it was. You know, it was a lot. Yeah. But we were really about like, let's just make this as easeful and normal for you.

But very quickly you run into these, like, you know, your normal routine was to go and get a beer, but like we had hid the beer, right? Mm-hmm. And um, so you found one and you cracked it open and we're all like, you know, because you're on hella medication and have no balance anyways. And it was just all the constant decision making of how much are we gonna try to restrict him versus how much are we just gonna try to create safety around him.

But all like risk mitigation and assessment. And so, you know, at one point, like you grab the, the bottle opener and the first thing just gut, we were like trying to explain to you why it's not a good idea to [00:38:00] drink while you're on, you know, like opioids. But yeah, it's quite the cocktail. Every, every other antipsychotic in the book.

I was gonna say it's probably quite the list. It was quite the list and um, and kind of has a really low heart rate. So like a lot of my concern was like, oh. Breathe checking heart. Oh my God. I stayed up all night that night counting his, his pulse. But anyways, so, um, you know, so first it was like, you can't have that beer.

And then he was like, the hell I can and I'm gonna stab you with this one key. And like, well I never thought he was gonna stab me. His mom was there. And that's just like hard to, like, you're watching your son, you know? And, and I think none of the family quite understood how out of his mind he was at that point.

And so like, it very quickly started to reveal itself. 'cause now you're in your normal context not being allowed to do the normal things you do here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So anyways, so it things kind of progressed in that vein for a couple days where it was like a lot of power struggles and Kennan is a avid Pokemon player and you know, the best way to like go get Pokemon is [00:39:00] to like leave your house and go Right like a Pokemon go for that reason.

You either go in a car, you go on foot. Yeah. And Kennan often goes to the Safeway and the street in the car to go catch some Pokemon. But he wasn't allowed to drive and like. I perceive driving to be very dangerous. And also again, law enforcement, right? Like there's just layers. Mm-hmm. So, 'cause his license was revoked, so, you know, I was hiding my keys and of course he found them.

And so then it was like the why this isn't a good idea again, the same dynamic. Mm-hmm. And like control dynamic. So that was really tough. And I think Ken and I ride the same wavelength a lot. Or like we have been together for so long that though we're not in the same necessarily vibration all the time, we're most often co-regulating.

So that there, it is regulated. And I think like in hindsight, you know, you were picking up on my fear, which was like to the moon and [00:40:00] um, and. I was like, you're in Sightless. Like nothing definitely wrong and everything's wrong right now. Definitely. You know, everything's a risk. I have to pretend like it's not and mm-hmm.

And this was like mental gymnastics for me too 'cause I know like this is my work, you know, this was my work too. And so like I had a lot of knowledge and experience and information and so there's also like, now I wanna make it perfect 'cause it's my life, you know? Yeah. This is my husband and it's my kid's life.

Your So the protective, I am a protector anyways. And the protective sense was just like, like it was taking up all the space in the room. So I think we were just not connecting and that was so unsettling for both of us. 'cause it's just not our norm. And your mom who was here at the time was like really good at challenge me.

Like we were talking about the keys and what do we do about the keys? And she was like, just leave them out. Like, let's just see what happens if we leave them out. And I was like, oh my God. Like the worst things in the world could happen if we leave them out. [00:41:00] But it was a really important practice of showing him that we like trust him enough, like we're not hiding them from you.

He still took them and drove away and it sucked, but like it was an important milestone. And so I think for me that. The lesson there was like, how do you, you're so off. Like how do you get back to co-regulation? How do I remind him that I'm a familiar Kennan developed in these first days too and I'm sharing this just 'cause I think it's interesting and like I know you're fine with it.

Oh, like a delusion that I wasn't who I was. Yeah. Like that I was an imposter of myself. Mm-hmm. And it started very quickly when we came home and I think it was in this response of you're not acting like I'm energetically not picking up on everything that makes you you. And it is like a known phenomenon.

And so like immediately I was like, I know what's going on, like intellectually, but like how do I get us out of this? You know? And so like everybody who was gonna come to the house got a text message ahead of time that said, you're gonna walk in the door and Ken's gonna say to you pretty quickly, [00:42:00] does Karen sound weird?

Doesn't she sound a little strange And you know, and also his sensory processing was off. Like he just whacked his brain. Oh, of course. Yeah. But this was his whole, like, I sounded weird. And then he'd look at me a little weird and we were even at a doctor's appointment. He was like checking in my throat and my ears and in my nose for like whatever device, you know, this imposter of me that's pretty impressive was wired with.

Wow. And so I think I started just to put all these like pieces of information together of like, I somehow have to remind him of like me and who we are. So a, I need to work on chilling out, which was really tough, but looked like I just woke up before, way before anybody else and I took the dog for a walk and I would like, you know, practice like deep breathing and gratitude and just like whatever was in the toolkit and try to like calm myself a little bit and have just.

Non-thinking space alone. And then also I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna play nineties hiphop. Like this is, this is the [00:43:00] MiniDisc we met around, you know, like this is our playlist. And that really worked, like, that really started to work of like, make this house feel like our house. Yep. Okay. Um, but I remember it was, it was de LA's balloon mind state.

Like I remember that moment. I remember how the light seemed to kind of change a little bit and that was like the beginning of, uh. That altered perception in terms of like who I was diminishing and you know, simultaneously you started to like be able to be a little bit more aware and trusting and communicative about your experience and that, you know, helped us kind of, uh, be able to see that we were both going through it.

Like Yeah, I remember I was like, Ken, I almost lost you too. You know, like I've also been awake for like, at one point he was like, you know, I'm not a hundred percent and I need all of you. All of you are at a hundred. I need you at a hundred, not at 70. And I was like, you know, none of [00:44:00] us have slept for a week.

Yeah. No excuses. Yeah. And what was, and what was the amount of time between coming home and then him, him. Yeah, coming to, coming to the realization, it was about two weeks. Two weeks. It was about two weeks. Like there were, I think, you know, the thing with head injury is that there's a lot of variability, right?

It's, it's also very environment dependent, both internal and external environment. How much sleep and what you ate and, you know, all the, we're delicate as humans, right? So this is one of those moments where you really are, and he was on a cocktail of medication, was, was insane. He was on a lot of medication, like insane.

And he both needed it and like, you know, it shifts what you need shifts over time. So. The first two weeks. You know, we had moments where I thought, and I think this was for me as a partner, what was so different than just a provider is that like, as a, there were many moments where I was like, how did I miss that?

I should have known that that was gonna be the [00:45:00] biggest trigger, or how did I think that we were there? We're not there yet. Like in terms of where we are in recovery, because the second you got a glimmer of like, progress, hope, what? Normalcy You're like running with it. Yeah. Because like that's what you desire.

Yeah. Whereas I think as a clinician you're accustomed to a lot of two steps back. You know, one step forward, two steps back. Yeah. And the variability. And um, so that was a huge, like, learning curve for me. So in those two weeks, there were moments where, you know, he had more insight, there was more connection.

But I would say it wasn't until those two weeks were over that like, you know, you really were like, all right, here's where I'm at. Like, here's, here's what I need to do next. Here's how also we could get him more involved in like, portions of the daily routine, like feeding the dog or taking the dog out or like, you know, you, you, your autonomy is stripped from you when, when you are a danger to yourself, you know?

Yeah. So a little more So more normalcy showing up. Yeah. And if [00:46:00] not given space for that, I'm, you know, I learned I'm the type of person that will just find it and take it. Mm-hmm. Like it was fantasy football season. I'm in many fantasy football leagues, so you got me in a bed. Soon as that doctor or nurse walks around, I'm checking to see how they log into that computer.

Okay. I now know how you logged in. I'm gonna log in and check my fantasy lineup so I don't lose another week, because I know I'm gonna lose. I haven't updated my lineup. So yeah, I hacked into a medical computer to, to update my fantasy lineup. Or like, there was a moment where they're like, the tests are the same, and you're like, all right.

I get it. You are gonna ask me this thing. This set us questions. And you know, they were like, well, what day is it? And I was like, hold on. And like, they didn't understand why. And I was waiting for the clock to hit midnight so I could say it was the next day. 'cause I'm like, don't tell me now. I'm gonna wait, wait, wait, wait.

It is now tomorrow. Let's go. Let's move on. Or they were like, you know, you need to practice walking in this hallway. And I had practice walking in the hallway and I felt [00:47:00] pretty damn good at walking in the hallway. And they're like, well, you can't leave until you walk upstairs. So I was like, fine, gimme some stairs.

Then like, why are you waiting so long to gimme stairs? So I walk up the stairs. Then like, you can't leave until you walk backwards. I'm like, all right, fine. I'll walk this entire corridor. I'm pretty sure you started walking backwards before anybody said anything about walking backwards. You're like, you need me to sit down.

I'll just walk backwards. Yeah. I'm like, I've walked this. I'm walking backwards to my seat. I've walked this, I've walked this corridor like 4,000 times. Like I'm done. I'm so, you know, on, on a Sunday to like. The unit staff is, you're just a fall risk. And so like, you know, it's just, sir, don't sir stop and this and this.

You know, anyways, just get me out of here. If you're gonna take my freedom away, I'm gonna show you how I can just go get it. Yeah. It was like, fine, I'll just go get freedom. It's fine. So that was hard. So that it was December, 2017 and it's now 2025. Yeah. Are there, do you still have any, any side effects that pop up and, because how you said it's never like [00:48:00] gone.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think it's always a process. Mm-hmm. And I think it'll be one of those, we'll see what happens in the future processes too. Like, I don't know what my brain is gonna be like in 10 years. I don't know. You know? Yeah. So there's always that, and I think in general I find lots of ways to celebrate little wins, remembering some sequence of numbers randomly, or like, you know, those moments when being open with our kids is really what they needed.

Like, they didn't need to like hush da da da. They needed to like, yo, shut the hell up. Like, yo, this is annoying. Like you're, you're getting older, like I can talk to you. Yeah. Um, I think in general I've had milestones that make me feel really good. Like going to an outdoor concert was one than going or going to many sporting events.

Right. Those are loud, noisy places. Yeah. Where I don't, and a lot going on. Right. And you know, so working through the, the stimulus and then being [00:49:00] able to walk out of there without like falling and getting dizzy was early on a challenge. But then like last year, I do things now on the day. Of my injury to like make it a new memory.

So like last year on the anniversary of my head injury, we went and saw Billie Eilish. Oh. Which is a crazy sensory like explosion. Yeah. Inside, you know, you're not like, you don't have, yeah. You don't even have the sky. Right. Like, we went to see Beyonce and I was like, this is so different because like that's an open air stadium.

The lasers aren't just bouncing off and back in my face. Yeah. Wow. Uh, but going to see Billie Eilish was huge. 'cause I love her music and her stage presence, but also I could make it through that show and that, that walking out of there feeling confident that like, you know, there weren't a ton of, you know, rebound like challenges and I could drive us home afterwards was huge.

And so I think, yeah, that's huge. I think there are, there are all these really awesome in the moment wins. I think for me, skating again was huge. Being able to transition to skating with a [00:50:00] helmet full time and not mm-hmm. You know, there were early times where I just forgot the helmet. Right. Or it just wasn't a part of my routine.

And now if I don't have a helmet on, I feel really weird. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, what am I doing? Like, this is so strange. Something's off. Or my and my friends would be like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. This is weird. Let me put my helmet on. Um, that transition was great. I think I found ways to tell my story, which has been really helpful.

'cause the more you tell the story, the more, I think in general, we, we don't get dbis diagnosed. Well, um, middle-aged men are more susceptible to it. 'cause we don't know our limits when it comes to sports and just general life. And, uh, yeah. I think a lot of people just are like, oh, I had a concussion. I'm like, no, no, let's talk about that.

Yeah. No, that's, I think it might be a little more than just a concussion. So, yeah. You know, becoming an advocate for safety, but also like TBI awareness and like. You know, being honest with people [00:51:00] and discussions and being like, you know, I might get real passionate about this. Just tell wire right now.

Just let Yeah, let me know. I got you. I might go in though just, yeah. I'll apologize now. Well, and something I know about brain injuries is mental health. Did you have any, or do you, I should say, to any type of depression and any mental health challenges pop up for the first time? I think ever struggled with depression for, for, for a while.

Mm-hmm. Um, for the first time ever struggled with mania and the backlash of both. Uh, really leaned in on my support, Karen here for, you know, helping me through those situations. But yeah, first time ever, ever having to deal with the up and down waves. Yeah. So bipolar, uh, tendencies, signs, never, I've never had to deal with that before.

Mm-hmm. And I think over time though. You, then you start to rewire for mechanisms that help you. Mm-hmm. Right. So [00:52:00] that's been a really like wellness plan, wellness structure, toolbox, any way you wanna slice it. Those pieces have become really, really crucial to my every day. And I think that one of the biggest challenges was the pandemic because it couldn't get out and have these moments of just like enjoying space with other people, random people.

Mm-hmm. And saying nice things and getting a smile back like that I didn't realize had fueled so much. You're like wit mm-hmm. That was crazy. You're, you know, the kind of like wit, like the quick remarks, right? Like the quick responses. The Ken and I know that gone of Kenon and that was really gone for a while and it was, you know, part of it was medication and part of it was just like your brain getting online, having other, I had a stutter, like a full on stutter for like a month at least, if not more.

But that I remember when your wit returned. Yeah. And when your navigation, navigation returns. So like Ken [00:53:00] could be a taxi driver, pres smartphones. Right. Like that's, and and it's enjoyable for him. Yeah. Um, but that did go away for a little bit. So did facial recognition. And you got p you thought you saw people you knew and you didn't recognize people for a while.

Ah, that's still hard. But, but those were early, but when, but still kind hard. But when those came back, especially the navigation and the facial recognition's still out there. You're right. But you need, but you need like the, the practice in order to do it. And so the pandemic, which was like, not that, you know, just like two years Yeah.

Later. So, um, that, that hurt was tough. Also, I lost tough my sense of smell and taste because of where the injury happened. It severed those nerves that go the little factor nerves that are in your skull. Yeah. Into your nose. 'cause they're connected to your skull. Interesting. Yeah. Things you don't really look at.

You don't think about that. Yeah. Yeah. So I lost. Like pretty much completely my sense of taste and smell. Hmm. And so that is an area that I have to consistently work on. [00:54:00] Um, there are smells that I just, I'd like attracted to. They just come out of nowhere fragrant sage if you That's growing anywhere in your neighborhood.

I'm like fragrance sage somewhere around here. But like I could walk into a coffee shop and not know it was a coffee shop and you know, coffee shops smell like one thing. Uh, yeah. And I had no idea. And like that was so off putting at first. And so strange lack of taste was really strange. You're like, you love french fries and things just tasted like oil.

Yeah. At first I went Well and the coffee thing is interesting because coffee is how you get rid of other scents. So the fact that that's the one that you couldn't, it wasn't the one, it was one of many, but yeah. No, no, no. I just, it, I find that really fascinating where one, I could train back though, that plant that you mentioned, the fragrance sage, I sometimes can't smell it, but like, you know, smell all the other things that are around.

So it's, I don't know, I mean like almost heightened in certain, certain connections, certain [00:55:00] connections that he made at certain times in the recovery. Like for, you know, one of the first activities that he resumed was feeding the dog and like Yeah. You know, so for a while everything smelled like dog food, no matter what.

It was furry thing, Uhhuh, because if he registered there's a smell, it smelled like dog food. Um, that's what it was. Food and vinegar were like things that, yeah, vinegar. That vinegar was huge. I went to, I went to South by Southwest like a year after or so after my head injury and. The whole place smelled like vinegar.

'cause it's like what you cook barbecue in or like barbecue sauce, right? Like yeah. The entire city. But all you could smell was the vinegar, the entire, it was so annoying and off. I like hid the Airbnb 'cause I was like, I cannot be outside. Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah. And like, you know, smell training citrus, things like that.

Mm-hmm. Smelling it over and over again. But yeah, there are times we're sitting in here and everyone's like, oh, you smell that? And I'm like, Nope. Not even a little bit for some things. No idea what youre [00:56:00] talking about. For some things that would be nice, right? Yeah. For some things. It was nice. We had a, we had an old dog at the time and I, I couldn't smell his breath.

Yeah. He apparently was really funky, but like I get all up in his face. Yeah. He was incontinent. And if you have like, Ken, it's you, I got this and you have a 2-year-old, you know, you're like, oh yeah, I got that. Gimme, lemme take care of that sting. Yeah. But you, you asked about mental health and I think you, something that just like occurred to me as we were talking.

Because it's not that you've like developed bipolar, meaning like you have a continuous experience of this, right? Mm-hmm. But you have moments when your energy gets very large and when you mention like your toolbox, like you've, you know, learned, what are the conditions that can both trigger that? Mm-hmm.

But also like what do I have at my disposal that if I want to minimize it, I can, or if I wanna contain it in some way or channel it in a certain way. Mm-hmm. And I was just thinking about how, you know, we annually make a trip out east and when [00:57:00] we did that for the first time, six months after head injury was bad, the first time you had a manic episode outside of the hospital.

Yeah. That was not trip. And it was, and it was really bad. And it's a much bigger story, I think, than this moment. But we just went and did that trip and I think it was the best that. Same environment. It's a highly triggering environment, including that it has these memories baked into it. Mm-hmm. But like, the triggers are real and they don't go away.

Mm. And so there's also this anticipatory anxiety about those triggers, you know, they're not avoidable triggers. They're like, you, you have to go face them. Mm-hmm. Um, I think this year, and it's, it's both of us, like none of this is in isolation. 'cause we both have the experiences, experience, it's just a different experience of it is.

This year we had a lot of like, it's gonna, this can happen. Like this is where we're going. But the thing that is gonna see us through is that we know like we can do anything together. Yeah. And so, and just like being explicit and like, we try, you know, this is now the sixth or seventh time since, but like this [00:58:00] time it just felt different.

And we're like, that is the place you come back to when the sympathetic system starts to fire. It is like, you're not here alone and you're here with a person, like for both of us, that like, we can do anything together. And so this shit is just some shit we are gonna do together, you know? Um, yeah. And act this year, like we, we had a lot of fun.

Like it wasn't just like surviving this space, it was actually also enjoying ourselves. It was. That's great. Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you for sharing that story. You're welcome. Thanks for asking. I think once again, it's not talked about. No, I think it's, it's, I think it's really important. A lot of people out there thinking they got their bell rung or like they fell off their bike and it was no big deal.

And No, it might have been. Yeah, it could be. Mm-hmm. Definitely. Yeah. So before we wrap up, I just want you to tell me about your business. Mm. And just tell me, tell me your [00:59:00] business and what it is and how it started. You want me to start? Sure. Well, we started in pathway designs for all those who, you know, didn't hear it.

MM Pathway, EMM, pathway Designs. Uh, two years ago. Just about like right now-ish, maybe to the, yeah, it might, no, in a week. It's a no, in a few days. It's two years. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, how funny. Two years, August 18. And, you know, it's like our child, honestly. It's another child. It's something that we are cultivating.

We are trying to understand how it can have the greatest impact. Right now we're working a lot in workplace development, workforce development, and workplace culture. Uh, 'cause that's a place that we were most recently in together with a former another business, Bitwise Industries. But I think more than anything, impact Designs is this beautiful merging of an engineer and a occupational therapist.

And when you think about those two [01:00:00] disciplines of problem solving and of, you know, just understanding need and how to really solve for a need, I don't think there's anything in Pathway Designs can't do. Like I'll be a hundred percent honest. There are things that we are good at and there are things that we're learning that we're really good at and we're really excited to see.

The next phase and the following phase and how think big as to like what it, what it really could be. 'cause at one time we were gonna build playgrounds. 'cause that makes sense. Uh, another time we were gonna support new dads because, you know, who doesn't get any love? Dads? Like, I know we here, you got Father's Day.

I know we got a thing. But like, I remember so many times being with my boy Turing when he was, you know, a baby and people were like, oh, that's so cute. You're babysitting. I ain't babysitting. I'm being a dad. Like, I babysit. I'm not out here playing games. I ain't getting paid for this. Like, this is real talk.

I'm being a dad. And we just maybe don't see [01:01:00] enough dads. We don't, I don't know what it, I didn't have a dad that was in my life. So at one point we were gonna support new dads. Um, then we were gonna build a school together that really supported not just the learning of the child, but the family and the staff.

Really the holistic wellbeing of all the people in the community so that we could all show up our best selves. Mm-hmm. And not be, you know, putting things on other folks because we're dealing with it and can't deal with it, don't have the capacity or tools or time given the time to deal with it. So if I make it like really simple, like we really love to shape spaces for love, and there's different places where you can say love and it means different things.

Mm-hmm. But, you know, I think it's really about, yeah, how can we co-create the conditions that foster the environment in which people can do the things that they wanna do the best that they can do them, or that people can try on new things and discover. Um, [01:02:00] and I, you know, a lot of. Like, yes, as Ken said today, it's a consultancy that supports workforce development, workplace culture programs and places.

Uh, but I think of all the places where like, I wanna breathe a little bit more love and mm-hmm. Um, we often are talking in really curious about, you know, in an age that is progressively digitally driven and engaged and there's a pace and mm-hmm. Uh, you know, there's certain ways that things are, there's less human touch in things.

Things are becoming heavily transactional. And, and so how, you know, that's not gonna change, right? So I'm thinking like, how do we support humans in being humans in this current and quickly evolving environment? And a lot of what we think about is like, you know, a. Culture, society is being shaped not only by the things that are happening, but by what's not happening.

Yes. [01:03:00] And so the negative space. Yeah, exactly. And so I think a lot of where we are most curious about is the negative space and how you can write that balance between relational and transactional in the negative space. Because that negative space is the absence right now of relational connection. And you know, humans just, we have an innate need for like purpose and mattering and belonging and that's, that's not gonna go away even if we are living more isolated, independent verse collective experiences.

So it is now this fun challenge to go, how can we take our combined and very holistic like viewpoint and experiences. Kind of think about different containers, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like work is a container, A consultancy is another type of container within work. Well, what are other containers that end up in, in people's homes?

Yeah. And, uh, are, do those conditions require an expert facilitating or can you [01:04:00] design something well enough that someone can engage in it and those conditions exist mm-hmm. In the invisible, but they exist and thus they foster a certain type of engagement. Yeah. We've always believed that the micro joy is out there.

Yeah. And that if you don't tap into the micro joy, you're actually tapping deeper into your. Predisposed, uh, negative self, right? Mm-hmm. If we are more likely to say negative things, then we have to really get, uh, go out there with intention of being positive. And that's hard. Yeah, that's hard. When you look at the world today, that's hard.

When you look at political systems, it's hard when you look at global news, right? That's hard. When you look at local news, like it's all just really hard to go, how am I supposed to bring joy into this world? Well, yeah. And if it's making me more depressed, it's harder to bring joy or see joy. Yes. Oh yeah.

And one of the ways to break that is to really start to live in the small joys. Yeah. Right. And really, but like, acknowledge them, not just like let them be fleeting and passing by. When I say I missed. So much of my interactions because of [01:05:00] 2020 is 'cause I like to just comment on people's outfits. Yeah.

I'm walking the street and you got like a really tight outfit or like somehow that outfit matches your bike, which matches your whole vibe. I want to say something. Yeah. I want to be like, Ooh, I see you. Yeah. And then, and then you get something back from someone when you do that. Mm-hmm. And in those moments you're lifted.

And if you can continue. So teachers are the best at this. We bank these moments. When a kid does his homework, you're like, I knew you could do it. And when you don't do it, I still know you did it once. Yeah. You can do it twice. I've seen it before. I've seen it. Right. That day your kid did all the chores and perfectly, you're like, oh my god.

Yeah. I'm holding onto this, this ain't going nowhere because it happens. It happened. I love micro joy. That's a really great way to say that. So if we start looking at the micro joy, start really indulging yourself. You know, you say, stop and smell the flowers. Well stop and smell the flowers. Like it's actually pretty tight, serious.

I mean, the macro is a reflection of the micro, [01:06:00] right? Mm-hmm. It's just the many micros, so, yeah. Yeah. I think in many places we've worked or, you know, like contributed in some way. It's been from a very, um, how can I activate at the ground level in mass mm-hmm. To pretty much like almost flood the set, you know?

Yeah. Uh, because most of us don't have control from the top, you know, and most of us don't have, no, we have her and, and alone as an individual, you won't have impact at a system level. Mm-hmm. Right? Unless you're tied to some kind of group or institution, you know? So, yeah, I, I'm. There's so much. I think that, um, it's easy to lose sight of that we can enjoy and that we do have, and a lot of that, like, uh, we are collective beings, but we are in such a individualist moment in time.

Mm-hmm. Like how do we bring people towards one another? Yeah. Because we're still human. We still need other humans no matter what. That's, no matter what's the connection we need the micro choice. Yeah. [01:07:00] You gonna need it. And we need community. Yep. And how do you bring community to this Yeah. Digital world.

Yeah. I, I wanna be part of whatever you're doing, you are a part of what we're doing. Well, I mean, I would love anything you decide to do. It's true. Uh, I wanna be part of it. 'cause I love this idea and I, the two of it, the two of us, two of you, I've spoken with the two of you about this before, but also just generations getting older, different generations working together.

Different generation. Mm-hmm. Totally. And the importance of bringing. Everyone together, if they're gonna work together, if they're gonna commune together. Yeah. And if we're gonna have a future together, frankly, you know exactly how, how to make that work. Yeah. And anyway, yeah. So I think that's that. Great.

We think of it as the art of connection, whether it be authentic, profound, uh, relational, um, you know, reciprocal. There is a, it's a craft, like you really do have to work at it. Mm-hmm. [01:08:00] You, you're gonna, you're gonna be either great naturally or terrible naturally, and still you're gonna have to work on it.

And there's a lot of noise right now that is also working against it. Right. So against the connection. So it feels like a time to make even more effort at that craft and to share that craft with others and to be louder. Mm-hmm. Yep. And as you said, you know, like it's, it's kind of like a child of ours.

There's something very fun in thinking about this as like, it's a toddler, right. You know, like it's in its own development, it being in pathway designs and um, you know, what an infant shows you is the same but very different than what a 2-year-old shows you. And so there's something very exciting about like, understanding this, this being a little bit better.

That is the energy that we can create together and then, um Yeah. Shape it takes Exactly. And that you can take different forms. Exactly. And you can shape it to what Yep. You need it to be or I what You'd like it. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I [01:09:00] think, I think in ultimately, like you said, we're shaping it to what's needed.

Yeah. So there's, you know, there was a time, there is a time for workforce development. That's a huge need. And supporting folks as they transition from wherever they are to where they want to be professionally. That's huge. Especially with our, our youngest generations. We've had their entire trajectory just like.

Sniffed for a little bit, couple years. Mm-hmm. Just cut that segment out. Didn't really happen. Yeah. You know, and they're coming back into it going, well wait, I needed those two years. Right. I missed out. Yeah. Um, really supporting folks because that's what they need. Also, when we're doing workforce development, we're supporting our employer partners because they've gotta welcome these people in and have systems, have projects, have meaningful work that not only adds value to the org, but adds value to these young individuals.

Right. How do you, how do you then start to build a culture where everyone in your org sees their role as being a part of uplifting a profession? Mm-hmm. Not just the job, job plus something. Right. And [01:10:00] then when you have those people, what do you do to really have systems that's that, keep that going, to make it sustainable.

And then with our workforce, like government partners, they need the actual structure. They need someone to go in and go, here's the landscape, here's how all these pieces connect. Here's where you can start funneling people in dollars in order to create something durable that can last for a long time. So we've been able to do that work and that's been in Pathway Designs work for the last two years.

And so, like Karen said, we're not looking back at the organ going, okay, you've done that. What's next? What would it look like if we didn't exist? What would be, what would be the ultimate goal? Right? If a pathway to science could retire on its own and say, Hey, you know, we made that change. Mm-hmm. Or like, how can you continue even to make that change, but you're not necessarily the holder of it.

Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well that's wonderful. So for anyone listening, I'll link your website to, in the show notes for anyone who's interested in, in Pathway design. [01:11:00] Thank you. Yay. Alright, so we're gonna wrap up and I'd love to wrap up with a couple of just pie in the sky questions. Do it. Let's do it. Okay.

Okay. So, uh, and either one of you can decide who goes first. So the first one, how about if there was anywhere in the world you could go right now, what would it be? Where would it be? Especially since our travel discussions. You, the two of you have been in many places and about to go somewhere. Really cool.

So Oh, you are? Um, this is a tough one. I, I wanna be in many places right now. Um, we are going to Costa Rica soon. Ooh, nice. It's a very special place to have someone that we haven't been since 2019. Oh, very cool. So, while I wanna be there today and not wait for November, that feels too easy. Yeah. You know, I, um, I do have a real desire.

It's been wonderful to share. Like my place of [01:12:00] origin with our kids, like to go and spend time in Israel with our kids. And there's so much, so many more future trips there too. Uh, and you know, to really see how our kids connect who they are to family and ancestry. Um, and so I, there's other parts of our story, like our individual and collective stories that have place that we really wanna bring our kids to.

Like Italy, right? Yeah. I think that's in the near future, but I'd really like to go to Trinidad, um, where Kennan's mom's side of the family is from. And there are parts of Africa I'd really like to go to too. Uh, especially on the west coast that I just haven't been. So those are, I think, maybe feel a little more future down the line, like when, um, but yeah.

Yeah, I'm like, I'm gonna go. Like we're talking pie in the sky, right? Yeah. Like, I'm just gonna go super like ethereal with it. Because there's so many times that we've been in locations [01:13:00] where the location is added to the scenario, to the vibe, to the feeling. Hmm. But the feeling is the same. And that's when I'm with my family and it's the four of us and we're just really enjoying time together.

Hmm. That's, that's been in some of the weirdest places and some of the most obvious places. But like in those moments where we are all sharing and in harmony, that's, there's no other place I'd rather be. Mm-hmm. I don't care where it is, location wise. Mm-hmm. That feeling when that happens, I'm like, oh, this is it.

Well, we could be on the subway in New York, and that happens and that's like, oh, I'm glad we're on the subway right now. A you're in Northern California. Exactly. It's been many different places. Exactly. Exactly. But yeah. Yeah, exactly. I love that. I love that place. Mm-hmm. That's great. So, one question I heard recently that I'm, I'm gonna start adding is if you walked into a theater and your [01:14:00] life was being shown on the screen and your life right now, at this moment, what would the audience be shouting at the screen?

Oh, you have one, don't you, you first. I don't, but I know it popped into my head. It's like, you know, whenever someone asks me what my, uh, entry song is, or my hype up song is, it's Win by J Rock. Mm-hmm. And so, like if anyone were, if I were to walk into a room in my. Movie was being shown. I would love everyone to be at that moment just being like, win, win, win, win, win.

Like that's a good part. There you go. Because, yeah. 'cause shouting doesn't have to be right. No, you idiot. No, no, no. I want them. You're, you're just like, win win. I want them to be chant, chanting. Love it. I would rarely say this for real, like, I'm, I didn't, I was not an adopter of the like, let's go, like let's fucking go.

Right? But I, it was the first thing I heard when you asked your question. Um, yeah. I, I think people would [01:15:00] be cheering to see like the unimaginable be visible imaginable. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's great. I love it. Okay. And the last thing that I always ask every guest is, what would you like to start or stop like right now that would bring you closer to your mo most authentic self, even if you already are that person?

What is something you want to either start or stop or both? Mine is so practical because this is like, I have this written down downstairs where like, girl, you gotta, you gotta get on top of this shit right now. So I feel Ken and I have been working in really the last couple weeks to not just be, but stay in a really expansive and non constrained space, like feeling the creative energy, know exactly what will pull away from that creative energy.

And so like really trying to, uh, create the personal conditions that keep me in that expansive space. And I [01:16:00] know, and so again, this sounds so practical and simple, but it's, it is, uh, the two things that I need to do right now is that I need to resume a particular kind of journaling practice that, thanks to your mom who's doing it right now, I'm like, yep, that's right.

It's time for three morning pages. Like, thank you for the inspiration. And they, I have an inner critic that can be, um. Louder and more mischievous at different times. It's not particularly loud right now, but it would be a real pain in the ass if it, uh, took up some, some airspace. Mm-hmm. And the morning pages are, you know, you kind of wake up and as soon as after you've woken up, you just write for three pages.

It doesn't matter what it is. And it just clears your head of a lot of just the chatter has been my experience and I've had experiences with that practice where like, I feel appreciably different within a week or two. So I know that that's something that I actually wanna do proactively and not reactively right now.

Uh, but in a real consistent practice. And then, um, [01:17:00] just because we've been traveling, I'm off of an exercise routine and I feel that energy building in me, but that energy will become anxiety if not burnt off. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so, um, I guess putting together, you know, daily practice of both the morning pages and the exercise.

Are, uh, like, you know, they're protective or enhancing measures to be my authentic self. Like I don't feel, I feel pretty me right now. Mm-hmm. Which feels great. Um, but I, I know that I can get pulled away from that pretty quickly if I don't attend to those two. Yeah. Where I'll agree 'cause we're entering into a new season.

We just started a new season. This is the season of drop offs and pickups in school. Right Back to school. Yeah. That back to school season. And I look forward to it because it does allow for schedule regularity and that schedule regularity allows for me to do things like yoga, which, you know, speaking of exercise, speaking of being off routine, [01:18:00] I have always found, you know, since starting a, a yoga practice that it stimulates two parts of me at the same time, which is really necessary.

And it's something that I've only found dance or sports to be able to really do, which is stimulate my mind and my body. At the same time, like really have them both firing and me trying to be better in both areas at the same time. And yoga does that for me. And I don't have to go anywhere and I don't have to like, you know, there's no, there's no like sneaking into a school after hours to skate or finding the skate park or waxing the coping or any of that.

I can just like go do it in the, like, the bedroom. And I haven't had the regularity of schedule to be able to go back to my normal yoga and strength training kind of practice. And for me to be my truly authentic self, that is an outlet that I have to have. And I'm nursing injuries, so I can't skate like I was doing.

I'm, I'm literally just getting [01:19:00] older every day and I feel it. Um, and so yoga is another way that I can tap into what skating has always done for me. Mm-hmm. Challenging my mental and my physical at the same time. So I need that. I need that, that duality. Perfect. Great. Well, thank you. So those are fun questions.

So much do my own sound effects. Well, thank you both so much. Thank you for sharing your story, for being so open and honest about everything. I really appreciate it. Hella fun. I always appreciate the two of you and our friendship. Oh, we have so much fun together. I'm so glad I met the two of you. A bunch of nineties.

I am nineties kids hanging out. Hey. That's right. And I mean, we always talk about nineties hip hop. That's like my favorite. So it's the best we need to, you know, I wanna hear that. I wanna hear that. Mini disc collection. I wanna hear that collection. Like you need to share that with me. We gotta find album.

We gotta find that album. I know. Yes. I've been looking and it's, [01:20:00] it's an obscure hiphop group. Okay. Like, I don't know that they came out with more than two. Right. We're gonna figure this out. But I want, I want, I want that playlist though too. Okay. Well thank you again to you both. Thank you Meredith. Love it.

Real Stories - Kennan & Karen (Part 2) - Career Changes, Starting a Business, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), and Finding Micro Joys

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